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Gov.UK update: UK nationals in the EU

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Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:41pm
9 replies169 views5 members subscribed
Kimmy11

Kimmy11

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Posts: 578

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Latest update from Gov.UK:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/advice-for-british-nationals-travelling-and-living-in-europe?utm_source=61b51810-a018-4ef0-aa24-c74a8914b3f1&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=govuk-notifications&utm_content=immediate

Previous mention of the 5 years "settled status" terminology appears to have disappeared, but this latest update confirms that the end of the implementation period, 31 December 2020, is the deadline for achieving permanent residence status, rather than the Brexit date of 19 March 2019.  Also, good news that the Double Taxation Agreement between the UK and Spain will continue to apply.

Of course, this assumes agreement is achieved.

If not, the Technical Notes section includes a considerable number of contingency papers, i.e. what happens to ? in the EU if there's no Brexit deal. I've picked out links to the ones likely to be of most interest to those of us living and owning property in Spain:

DRIVING:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/driving-in-the-eu-if-theres-no-brexit-deal

MOBILE ROAMING:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/mobile-roaming-if-theres-no-brexit-deal

TRAVEL:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/travelling-to-the-eu-with-a-uk-passport-if-theres-no-brexit-deal

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/travelling-in-the-common-travel-area-if-theres-no-brexit-deal/travelling-within-the-common-travel-area-and-the-associated-rights-of-british-and-irish-citizens-if-there-is-no-brexit-deal

FINANCIAL SERVICES:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/banking-insurance-and-other-financial-services-if-theres-no-brexit-deal/banking-insurance-and-other-financial-services-if-theres-no-brexit-deal


It's worth taking a look at the section "EEA customers (including UK citizens living abroad) of UK firms operating in the EEA":"Many UK financial services firms who currently passport into the EEA are taking steps to ensure that they could continue to operate after exit, for example by establishing a new EU-authorised subsidiary. This would allow the UK firm to offer new services after exit through its EEA subsidiary, and in some cases existing contracts could be transferred to the new entity."

A helpful forum member asked Transferwise (who many of us use for currency exchange) what their contingency plans are and reported that they're already making arrangements for trading via a EU entity.  I won't be drawing my private pensions for another 3 years, but this section has prompted me to ask similar questions of my UK private pension providers.  The UK Government has its own, now well-publicised, issue with payment of the State pension to UK citizens living in the EU that is has to work through.

Kind regards,

Kim

Dlrsantapola

Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:25pm

Posts: 52

Location: Santa Pola

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Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:25pm

Kim, this is why this forum is so great, people like yourself, Jim, Pete and everyone else on here giving their advice, it really is so helpful ! Keep up the good work people !! 

PeteKnight

PeteKnight

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Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:09am

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Location: Villamartin

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Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:09am

The link about travelling g to theEU with a UK passport is interesting.

Previously, passports could be renewed upto 9 months before expiry and still retain the original expiry data, making a passport valid for as much as 10 years and 9 months.

This has now been changed, so that the passport will only be valid for a maximum of 10 years, so if you renew in advance you’ll lose your current renewal aniversary date.

My passport was issued in April ‘09, with an expiry date of October ‘18. If I don’t renew before 29th March then I could be denied entry to Spain (in the event of a no deal situation) because although my passport would have 6 months before the expiry date, only the first 10 years since the issue date would be counted - meaning that Spain would regard my passport expiry date as being April ‘19.

Pete.

RayD

RayD

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Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:46am

Posts: 331

Location: Catral

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Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:46am

Dlrsantapola wrote:

Kim, this is why this forum is so great, people like yourself, Jim, Pete and everyone else on here giving their advice, it really is so helpful ! Keep up the good work people !! 

The Devil is in the Detail, so they say but, the government advice is totally without detail. The waffle on about passport validity duration but totally abstain from telling us about visas, Schengen visas etc.

After March 2019 if there’s no deal

After 29 March 2019, if you’re a British passport holder (including passports issued by the Crown Dependencies and Gibraltar), you’ll be considered a third country national - under the Schengen Border Code and will therefore need to comply with different rules to enter and travel around the Schengen area. Third-country nationals are citizens of countries (like Australia, Canada and the USA) which do not belong to the EU or the European Economic Area.

'Comply with different codes' means we will have to have a visa to enter EU countries or a Schengen visa to travel throughout the Schengen area. 

What it also doesn't say is that, given the current agreement if we do reach agreement, we will still need visas and a Schengen visa, so there is no difference to travel with or without agreement.

My understanding of the agreement so far is that we can travel to and from the UK and Spain by air or Santander ferry using a single country visa to get into Spain. If we want to drive via France and Eurotunnel of D/C ferry, we would need a Schengen visa.

Now a Schengen visa is only valid, as far as I can see online, for 3 months - followed by a 3 month gap before the next one can be obtained. This will severely limit travel for holiday home owners and make life very difficult for permanent residents who want to travel around Europe. Also, a Schengen visa can only be used for entry via a named country for the duration of the visa- ie if you nominate Spain as your entry you have to either fly in or enter via Santander or Bilbao. You are the free to wander around the Schengen area at will for 3 months. However, during that same 3 month period you couldn't enter Spain via France if you decided to drive through the tunnel or use D/Calais.

It's all very well, under the current agreement, being able to live in Spain as a legal resident of Spain, and have all the rights of residency as we have now, BUT travel to and from Spain will be problematical as we will become Extranjeros and not be EU citizens with the right to travel freely.

Kimmy11

Kimmy11

Original Poster

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Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:27pm

Posts: 578

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Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:27pm

Hi RayD,

I agree to a large extent with your comments; unfortunately, in my opinion, the UK voted for Brexit and we are where we are. 

I'm sure there will be as many expat residents worrying about whether/how their UK State pensions are going to be paid in Spain, as holiday home owners worrying about the inconvenience of their travel arrangements, but at least the UK Government is now giving us an indication of what could lay ahead should there be no deal - and, as you say, some elements will still change even if we do get a deal. 

Pete made a helpful assessment of the impact on passport validity and, like him, one of the first things I did was check the expiry date on mine.

It's down to us to do our own contingency planning, based on our individual circumstances.  Personally, as a resident in Spain who only goes back to the UK once a year, the Visa requirements won't be a major issue for me (despite being old enough to remember travelling on Visas prior to the 1992 EU Freedom of Movement legislation!).  It's the potential lack of reciprocal healthcare and index-linked State pension for early retirees that's my major concern.  I could get angry about it, but what's the point?  Nothing, short of a second referendum, is likely to change the outcome, but at least now we have some information to prompt us to explore further.  If we expect to rely on the UK Government to spoon-feed us every last detail, I think we'll have a very long wait - or perhaps dealing with Spanish bureauracy for the last two and a half years has significantly lowered my expectations of any government!  :o)

Best wishes,

Kim


RayD

RayD

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Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:27pm

Posts: 331

Location: Catral

207 helpful posts

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:27pm

I think you missed my point. Forget all about passport durations. Currently we are EU citizens and have the right to travel as such around the EU and Schengen areas without recourse to visas etc.

Come brexit, whether with or without an agreement, we cease to become EU citizens and become extranjeros who need visas to visit individual EU countries, or a Schengen visa to be able to travel between Schengen areas. This is all down to the loss of our EU citizenship as a consequence of brexit.

Another consequence of losing EU citizenship is that, as things stand, our residence of Spain will cease under the current rules and we will have to apply again as extranjeros.

Spain and other EU countries do not have to change their laws to accommodate those of us expats abroad. We have to comply with laws already in place. With agreement, we will keep our right to stay in Spain, but probably still have to reapply as extranjeros. This is outlined in the UKGOV handout. Without agreement, ie a hard brexit in March, that right isn't protected and we will be subject to the generosity of the Spanish government.

In either case, we will have no right of movement in the EU - not because of brexit per se, but as a consequence of no longer being EU citizens and the UK never being part of the Schengen agreement.

As a matter of information, I lost my UK citizenship when Maggie Thatcher's 1980? immigration act decreed that a child born abroad of a father born abroad lost their UK citizenship and became a BSWC (British Subject Without Citizenship). My father was a british serviceman born abroad of a british serviceman so, having been born abroad myself, I ceased to be a British citizen. When I went to the EU I had to get a visa every time. Eventually I forked out 500 quid in 2007 and became a british citizen again.

So, don't be complacent and think it can't happen!

Kimmy11

Kimmy11

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Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:57pm

Posts: 578

564 helpful posts

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:57pm

I haven't missed your point at all RayD - I've been completely aware of all of your points for many months.  I made my original post to share information that may be helpful to others - it was to me - not to start or be on the receiving end of a Brexit debate. 

And I'm certainly not complacent - I supported the "Britain Stronger in Europe" campaign before the referendum and I'm a member of "The Local" and donate to the "Bremain in Spain" organisation.

So I'm curious to know, what else would you have me, and others, do now? 

Kind regards,

Kim

RayD

RayD

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Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:09pm

Posts: 331

Location: Catral

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Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:09pm

I'm not suggesting you do anything. All I'm doing is imparting accurate information.

I have seen other postings where the attitude is 'they need us more than we need them so that'll accommodate us'. That's a complacency which seems to be spreading and I was just trying to spell out the reality of what is, or could happen.

The current government bulletins seem, to my mind, be scaremongering in order to persuade MPs not to rock the boat and to accept the Chequers proposals. What they are not explaining, or deliberately avoiding, is the reality of the difficulties UK nationals will have actually travelling in the EU. This particularly affects those of us who are resident in Spain as we won't have the ability to travel outside the country without visas. Forget the duration of passports, that's a red herring. The real issue is our forthcoming lack of EU citizenship, whether it be in March 2019 or December 2020.

french martini

french martini

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Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:12pm

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Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:12pm

RayD wrote:

I think you missed my point. Forget all about passport durations. Currently we are EU citizens and have the right to travel as such around the EU and Schengen areas without recourse to visas etc.

Come brexit, whether with or without an agreement, we cease to become EU citizens and become extranjeros who need visas to visit individual EU countries, or a Schengen visa to be able to travel between Schengen areas. This is all down to the loss of our EU citizenship as a consequence of brexit.

Another consequence of losing EU citizenship is that, as things stand, our residence of Spain will cease under the current rules and we will have to apply again as extranjeros.

Spain and other EU countries do not have to change their laws to accommodate those of us expats abroad. We have to comply with laws already in place. With agreement, we will keep our right to stay in Spain, but probably still have to reapply as extranjeros. This is outlined in the UKGOV handout. Without agreement, ie a hard brexit in March, that right isn't protected and we will be subject to the generosity of the Spanish government.

In either case, we will have no right of movement in the EU - not because of brexit per se, but as a consequence of no longer being EU citizens and the UK never being part of the Schengen agreement.

As a matter of information, I lost my UK citizenship when Maggie Thatcher's 1980? immigration act decreed that a child born abroad of a father born abroad lost their UK citizenship and became a BSWC (British Subject Without Citizenship). My father was a british serviceman born abroad of a british serviceman so, having been born abroad myself, I ceased to be a British citizen. When I went to the EU I had to get a visa every time. Eventually I forked out 500 quid in 2007 and became a british citizen again.

So, don't be complacent and think it can't happen!

Some very good points made by you RayD. Nicola :-)


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Kimmy11

Kimmy11

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Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:32pm

Posts: 578

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Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:32pm

You may feel EU Citizenship is the highest priority - I don't disagree with you - but to say that passport validity is a "red herring" is, I believe, incorrect.  Pete posted an excellent explanation of why this could be an immediate issue for some (many?) expats, which I hope will have many people doing as he and I did, checking our passport expiry date.  It is of immediate concern because it's dependent on the March 2019 Brexit deadline, not the December 2020 Implementation deadline.

By the way, you've never seen a post from me suggesting my attitude is 'they need us more than we need them so that'll accommodate us'.  I think that's naive at best - and I'm too polite to say what I really think of people with that attitude.

In your position, feeling as passionate as you do about our loss of EU Citizenship, I think I'd be suggesting others may want to sign up to "Europe and You" and join their "Campaign for permanent EU citizenship" - the email from James Savage landed in my Inbox about an hour ago, but I guess you already have it too.

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