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Can I visit holiday home as many times in the year as long as it doesn’t exceed the 180 days.

Posted: Thu Sep 3, 2020 2:02pm
38 replies5586 views14 members subscribed
Calle calpe

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Brexit changes,can I visit holiday homes as many times in the year as long as it doesn’t exceed 180 days

Peter3473

Posted: Thu Sep 3, 2020 2:33pm

Peter3473

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Posted: Thu Sep 3, 2020 2:33pm

I am on the understanding, up to 90 days in the first 6 months, then another 90 days in the second 6 months.

Movingon

Posted: Thu Sep 3, 2020 4:43pm

Movingon

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Posted: Thu Sep 3, 2020 4:43pm

Sort of. 

It's 90 days in a rolling 180 which starts the day you set foot in the Schengen area.

Example:

If you arrived today then between now and March 2nd. 2021 (180 days hence) you could come and go as many times as you like provided the total did not exceed 90 days.

If you got to 90 days before March then you would have to leave and wait until March 3rd. for the 180 day period to start again. 

Movingon

Posted: Thu Sep 3, 2020 4:57pm

Movingon

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Posted: Thu Sep 3, 2020 4:57pm

Handy site, gone in my bookmarks. 

Another one here which calculates when your 180 days is up. 

https://www.timeanddate.com/date/dateadded.html?d1=3&m1=9&y1=2020&type=add&ay=&am=&aw=&ad=180&rec=

oadbyman

Posted: Thu Sep 3, 2020 11:37pm

oadbyman

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Posted: Thu Sep 3, 2020 11:37pm

Calle calpe

Being a rolling 90 days

If you arrive in the Schengen area (not just Spain) on 1/1/21 and leave on 15/3/21 that is 74 days

As an example you can return on 16/6/21 (16 day before the end of a 180 period) and stay 90 days as the 90 days are rolling along, but now you cannot return until 90 days have elapsed

But remember a week in Greece or in Germany (anywhere in the Schengen area excepting Ireland) in between at they count 7 nights = 8 days and reduce your time in Spain

so without any other trip to the Area ton he 13th of December you can return and stay for up to 90 days

A lot of people will not be effected as looking at it in a practical way you can do 2 weeks each month and as most months have more that 28 days you will not break the rules without checking dates.

you can do a month and miss a month

Hope this helps


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Keeks

Posted: Fri Sep 4, 2020 3:34am

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Posted: Fri Sep 4, 2020 3:34am

oadbyman wrote on Thu Sep 3, 2020 11:37pm:

Calle calpe

Being a rolling 90 days

If you arrive in the Schengen area (not just Spain) on 1/1/21 and leave on 15/3/21 that is 74 days

As an example you can return on 16/6/21 (16 day before the end of a 180 period) and stay 90 days as the 90 days are rolling along, but now you cannot return until 90 days have elapsed

But remember a week in Greece or in Germany (anywhere in the Schengen area excepting Ireland) in between at they count 7 nights = 8 days and reduce your time in Spain

so without any other trip to the Area ton he 13th of December you can return and stay for up to 90 days

A lot of people will not be effected as looking at it in a practical way you can do 2 weeks each month and as most months have more that 28 days you will not break the rules without checking dates.

you can do a month and miss a month

Hope this helps


Hi you say except Ireland, what's the rule for Ireland?

Alan mac

Posted: Fri Sep 4, 2020 8:45am

Alan mac

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Posted: Fri Sep 4, 2020 8:45am

This is very interesting., we own properties in both France and Spain so would probably fall foul of the 90 day issue. However my wife has dual UK and Irish citizenship and we have been told that as long as I am with her in the Schengen area I can exercise “Treaty Rights” and would therefore be exempt from this ?

oadbyman

Posted: Fri Sep 4, 2020 11:13am

oadbyman

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Posted: Fri Sep 4, 2020 11:13am

Alan mac wrote on Fri Sep 4, 2020 8:45am:

This is very interesting., we own properties in both France and Spain so would probably fall foul of the 90 day issue. However my wife has dual UK and Irish citizenship and we have been told that as long as I am with her in the Schengen area I can exercise “Treaty Rights” and would therefore ...

...be exempt from this ?

Point me in the right direction please as I have the right to my Irish Passport.

Ray sorry about the 90/180 mistake yes it is a 180 rolling days and the text reflected that, and yes I was thinking that Ireland were in the Schengen area and the Common travel area sorry for any confusion.

So my corrected post reads

Calle calpe

Being a rolling 180 days

If you arrive in the Schengen area (not just Spain) on 1/1/21 and leave on 15/3/21 that is 74 days

As an example you can return on 16/6/21 (16 day before the end of a 180 period) and stay 90 days as the 90 days are rolling along, but now you cannot return until 90 days have elapsed

But remember a week in Greece or in Germany (anywhere in the Schengen area) in between at they count 7 nights = 8 days and reduce your time in Spain (Ireland is in the Common Travel area and both UK and IE passport holders are free to travel in this area, other EU countries not in the Schengen area will have their own rules but these should not effect the 180 rolling days unless you have to travel through the Schengen area to get to your destination)

so without any other trip to the Area ton he 13th of December you can return and stay for up to 90 days

A lot of people will not be effected as looking at it in a practical way you can do 2 weeks each month and as most months have more that 28 days you will not break the rules without checking dates.

you can do a month and miss a month

Hope this helps


oadbyman

Posted: Fri Sep 4, 2020 12:09pm

oadbyman

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Posts: 223

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Joined: 14 Jun 2020

Posted: Fri Sep 4, 2020 12:09pm

This post that was quoted has been deleted.

Hi Ray

I think you are wrong, I think the 16 days give you 90 days in the first 180 days, so staying drop off a day from the rolling calendar,the first of which in the example is the first day in January, so you can stay up to 90 days from the date of entry.

If you did then you would not be able to return for 90 days, each day less than 90 would bring forward your earliest return date.

So if you stayed for 30 days then on leaving they would have 60 days from the 16/6/21 left of the 90 days.

I did a excel spreadsheet to work it out as we spend about 3 months in the winter a month in June'ish and 6 weeks in the Autumn, and would need to reduce our winter break to suit the 90 days.

Unless Treaty Rights allows my wife to be with me - anyone who knows more on this post or Private Message me - Please

If I find out more then I will post an update

Alan mac

Posted: Fri Sep 4, 2020 1:00pm

Alan mac

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Location: Orihuela

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Posted: Fri Sep 4, 2020 1:00pm

oadbyman wrote on Fri Sep 4, 2020 11:13am:

Point me in the right direction please as I have the right to my Irish Passport.

Ray sorry about the 90/180 mistake yes it is a 180 rolling days and the text reflected that, and yes I was thinking that Ireland were in the Schengen area and the Common travel area sorry for any confusion.

So my corrected post reads

Calle calpe

Being a rolling 180 days

If you arrive in the Schengen area (not just Spain) on 1/1/21 and leave on 15/3/21 that is 74 days

As an example you can return on 16/6/21 (16 day before the end of a 180 period) and stay 90 days as the 90 days are rolling along, but now you cannot return until 90 days have elapsed

But remember a week in Greece or in Germany (anywhere in the Schengen area) in between at they count 7 nights = 8 days and reduce your time in Spain (Ireland is in the Common Travel area and both UK and IE passport holders are free to travel in this area, other EU countries not in the Schengen area will have their own rules but these should not effect the 180 rolling days unless you have to travel through the Schengen area to get to your destination)

so without any other trip to the Area ton he 13th of December you can return and stay for up to 90 days

A lot of people will not be effected as looking at it in a practical way you can do 2 weeks each month and as most months have more that 28 days you will not break the rules without checking dates.

you can do a month and miss a month

Hope this helps


this is the response I have recieved

From: "GROW-YOUR-EUROPE-ADVICE

Dear Sir/Madam, 

Please find below the reply to your enquiry. Please note that the advice given by Your Europe Advice is an independent advice and cannot be considered to be the opinion of the European Commission, of any other EU institution or its staff nor will this advice be binding upon the European Commission, any other EU or national institution. 

Dear Sir, 

Thank you for getting in touch with Your Europe Advice. 

You have a query relating to your and your wife's entitlements to live/travel to/in France/Spain, under EU law. 

You are a UK citizen, and your wife is a dual Irish/UK citizen. 

You wonder to what extent you will continue to be able to invoke EU law in the future, after the transitional period laid down under the Withdrawal Agreement between the EU and the UK. The transitional period ends on the 31st December 2020. 

Thus, you wonder whether you may still rely on EU law for your travels into France and Spain after the 31st December 2020. 

Given that your spouse is an Irish citizen, she will continue to qualify as an EU citizen. Given that you are her family member as her spouse, you will also continue to qualify as a beneficiary of EU law; This is because the Republic of Ireland continues to be a member of the European Union. The rest of this post will focus on your and your wife´s rights of residence in Spain or France, on the premise of your query, which refers to the fact that you may soon retire to your properties in France or Spain. 

Accordingly, the Withdrawal agreement between the EU and the UK is not necessarily relevant to your situation. In other words, you may still rely on your wife's EU citizenship (as an Irish citizen) in order to claim that you are vested with rights of free movement under EU law, as the family member of an EU citizen. 

We will therefore focus on your question, on the basis that your wife will continue to be an EU citizen (ie. as a citizen from the Irish Republic). However, also note that the answer would be the same if the answer were to be given to you on the basis that you are a UK citizen and the rights of residence in France or Spain are to be invoked before the end of 2020, by virtue of the Withdrawal Agreement (signed and ratified by the EU and the UK). 

This is because, notwithstanding Brexit occurring on the 31st January 2020, UK citizens and their family member still benefit from EU free movement rules by virtue of the Withdrawal Agreement, which laid down a transitional period which will last until the end of 2020. 

Your question relates to the entitlements you and your spouse/close family member may benefit from in France/Spain. 

Your wife is an Irish citizen and you are her family member (on the basis that you are married to her). Where both of you reside in France/Spain, inasmuch as you live there for periods of over 3 months a year, you will continue to enjoy the right to reside in both member states, subject to the conditions that are explained below. 

You wonder what documents are required for the process of registration as residents in France/Spain. 

EU citizens are entitled to remain in France/Spain, subject to a number of conditions. 

Where EU citizens remain in Spain for more than 90 days, they must submit a residence application to the relevant office in the locality of residence (Oficina de extranjeros in Spain, Préfecture in France). The matter is regulated under Directive 2004/38, as implemented under Spanish law by virtue of Real Decreto 240/07 and article R121-1 Code d Entrée et de Séjour des Étrangers 
et du Droit d Asile (Ceseda). 

The basis for the application will be as follows: 

That your wife is an Irish citizen, 

And 

That your wife is either working, self-employed or self sufficient in France/Spain, the latter category meaning that she has sufficient means to maintain herself (and dependents) in France/Spain, AND that she has comprehensive sickness insurance covering herself (and her dependents), against all health risks. The requirement for comprehensive sickness insurance can also be satisfied with a private insurance policy. 

In relations to a private health insurance cover, and inasmuch as it does indeed cover against all medical risks, it would meet the requirements set under Article 7 Directive 2004/38. The matter is regulated under article 8 9 and 10 of Directive 2004/38; and Real Decreto 240/07 by virtue of Spanish law. 

The following proof will be required: 

Proof that your wife is an Irish citizen: (Irish passport) 
Proof that your wife is a worker, a self-employed person or a self-sufficient person, (proof of financial means and proof of comprehensive sickness insurance); 
For you, your UK passport; and your marriage certificate (note that Spain and France may require the marriage certificate to be legalized and translated). 

Note that the requirement for financial means does not require proof of a French/Spanish bank account. So long as proof of sufficient financial means is produced, it matters not if the proof of funds is adduced in the form of UK bank statements (it may however require you to have to translate the same, thus, having to under the extra expense of using a sworn translator for that purpose). 

Throughout the processing of your applications, you and your family member enjoy a right of residence in France/Spain by virtue of being able to prove the above conditions. 

In Spain, you are urged to contact a Spanish immigration adviser. For more on this, you are urged to contact the local Law Society ("Colegio de Abogados"). 
https://www.abogacia.es/conozcanos/la-institucion/colegios-y-consejos/ 

In France: 

https://www.cnb.avocat.fr/fr/annuaire-des-avocats-de-france 


For more information about the current restrictions in both France and Spain, you are referred to the following website: 
https://ec.europa.eu/info/live-work-travel-eu/health/coronavirus-response/travel-and-transportation-during-coronavirus-pandemic_en#traveladviceandbordermeasures 


Best regards, 

Your Europe - Advice 

To submit another enquiry, please visit Your Europe Advice, but do not reply to this e-mail. 

Your original enquiry was:
I am a U.K. citizen and my wife has dual UK and Irish citizenship . After Dec 2020 am I permitted to travel within the EU with her as the spouse of a EU citizen free of any visa requirements and is my stay limited ? We own properties in both France and Spain And travel often .we may soon retire to our properties 

Yours sincerely, 

Your Europe Advice

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