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Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:22pm
Movingon wrote on Fri Sep 4, 2020 4:49pm:
I think you are reading 90 in a rolling 180 it as you would like it to work not as it does, maybe this will help you understand it?
The truth is that in terms of the permitted length of stay in another EU state Brexit actually changes nothing, it always was 90 days in 180 but hitherto nobody has been checking, it's that which is about to change on Jan 1st. ...
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Yes that’s correct
Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:36pm
elinspain wrote on Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:03pm:
Hello Christina,
That is not correct..
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It is 90 days in e.g. Spain - 90 days away from Spain = 180days...then you can begin again, it is a rolling 180day period.
Elinspain
I think I understand now. Sorry for not clicking on , I’ve ended up really confused, about a lot of things.
I’m here on my own just now, having previously , lived in Gran Alacant for two years. 2017-2019.
Returned home for personal reasons, but couldn’t settle, again in Scotland. So came back on oct this year.
I’m in Santa Pola, now and hoping to buy at some point.
Can be hard on your own sometimes, however, I’ve met some lovely people since being here, as I did in Gran Alacant.
I appreciate all the information and advice.
Thankyou for your patience to those who have replied to me.
Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:16am
Alan mac wrote on Fri Sep 4, 2020 1:00pm:
this is the response I have recieved
From: "GROW-YOUR-EUROPE-ADVICE
Dear Sir/Madam,
Please find below the reply to your enquiry. Please note that the advice given by Your Europe Advice is an independent advice and cannot be considered to be the opinion of the Eu...Read more...
...ropean Commission, of any other EU institution or its staff nor will this advice be binding upon the European Commission, any other EU or national institution.
Dear Sir,
Thank you for getting in touch with Your Europe Advice.
You have a query relating to your and your wife's entitlements to live/travel to/in France/Spain, under EU law.
You are a UK citizen, and your wife is a dual Irish/UK citizen.
You wonder to what extent you will continue to be able to invoke EU law in the future, after the transitional period laid down under the Withdrawal Agreement between the EU and the UK. The transitional period ends on the 31st December 2020.
Thus, you wonder whether you may still rely on EU law for your travels into France and Spain after the 31st December 2020.
Given that your spouse is an Irish citizen, she will continue to qualify as an EU citizen. Given that you are her family member as her spouse, you will also continue to qualify as a beneficiary of EU law; This is because the Republic of Ireland continues to be a member of the European Union. The rest of this post will focus on your and your wife´s rights of residence in Spain or France, on the premise of your query, which refers to the fact that you may soon retire to your properties in France or Spain.
Accordingly, the Withdrawal agreement between the EU and the UK is not necessarily relevant to your situation. In other words, you may still rely on your wife's EU citizenship (as an Irish citizen) in order to claim that you are vested with rights of free movement under EU law, as the family member of an EU citizen.
We will therefore focus on your question, on the basis that your wife will continue to be an EU citizen (ie. as a citizen from the Irish Republic). However, also note that the answer would be the same if the answer were to be given to you on the basis that you are a UK citizen and the rights of residence in France or Spain are to be invoked before the end of 2020, by virtue of the Withdrawal Agreement (signed and ratified by the EU and the UK).
This is because, notwithstanding Brexit occurring on the 31st January 2020, UK citizens and their family member still benefit from EU free movement rules by virtue of the Withdrawal Agreement, which laid down a transitional period which will last until the end of 2020.
Your question relates to the entitlements you and your spouse/close family member may benefit from in France/Spain.
Your wife is an Irish citizen and you are her family member (on the basis that you are married to her). Where both of you reside in France/Spain, inasmuch as you live there for periods of over 3 months a year, you will continue to enjoy the right to reside in both member states, subject to the conditions that are explained below.
You wonder what documents are required for the process of registration as residents in France/Spain.
EU citizens are entitled to remain in France/Spain, subject to a number of conditions.
Where EU citizens remain in Spain for more than 90 days, they must submit a residence application to the relevant office in the locality of residence (Oficina de extranjeros in Spain, Préfecture in France). The matter is regulated under Directive 2004/38, as implemented under Spanish law by virtue of Real Decreto 240/07 and article R121-1 Code d Entrée et de Séjour des Étrangers
et du Droit d Asile (Ceseda).
The basis for the application will be as follows:
That your wife is an Irish citizen,
And
That your wife is either working, self-employed or self sufficient in France/Spain, the latter category meaning that she has sufficient means to maintain herself (and dependents) in France/Spain, AND that she has comprehensive sickness insurance covering herself (and her dependents), against all health risks. The requirement for comprehensive sickness insurance can also be satisfied with a private insurance policy.
In relations to a private health insurance cover, and inasmuch as it does indeed cover against all medical risks, it would meet the requirements set under Article 7 Directive 2004/38. The matter is regulated under article 8 9 and 10 of Directive 2004/38; and Real Decreto 240/07 by virtue of Spanish law.
The following proof will be required:
Proof that your wife is an Irish citizen: (Irish passport)
Proof that your wife is a worker, a self-employed person or a self-sufficient person, (proof of financial means and proof of comprehensive sickness insurance);
For you, your UK passport; and your marriage certificate (note that Spain and France may require the marriage certificate to be legalized and translated).
Note that the requirement for financial means does not require proof of a French/Spanish bank account. So long as proof of sufficient financial means is produced, it matters not if the proof of funds is adduced in the form of UK bank statements (it may however require you to have to translate the same, thus, having to under the extra expense of using a sworn translator for that purpose).
Throughout the processing of your applications, you and your family member enjoy a right of residence in France/Spain by virtue of being able to prove the above conditions.
In Spain, you are urged to contact a Spanish immigration adviser. For more on this, you are urged to contact the local Law Society ("Colegio de Abogados").
https://www.abogacia.es/conozcanos/la-institucion/colegios-y-consejos/
In France:
https://www.cnb.avocat.fr/fr/annuaire-des-avocats-de-france
For more information about the current restrictions in both France and Spain, you are referred to the following website:
https://ec.europa.eu/info/live-work-travel-eu/health/coronavirus-response/travel-and-transportation-during-coronavirus-pandemic_en#traveladviceandbordermeasures
Best regards,
Your Europe - Advice
To submit another enquiry, please visit Your Europe Advice, but do not reply to this e-mail.
Your original enquiry was:
I am a U.K. citizen and my wife has dual UK and Irish citizenship . After Dec 2020 am I permitted to travel within the EU with her as the spouse of a EU citizen free of any visa requirements and is my stay limited ? We own properties in both France and Spain And travel often .we may soon retire to our properties
Yours sincerely,
Your Europe Advice
Thank you so much. We are hoping to buy an apartment in Spain when this madness is over and are in the same situation as your wife and yourself.
Much appreciated.
Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:17pm
Helpful member
There are 2 different things
Schengen area rules (Which as EU members did not apply to UK passport holders)
If you arrive in the area (not just Spain) on 1/1/21 and leave on 15/3/21 that is 74 days
In this example you can return on 16/6/21, 16 day before the end of a 180 period) and stay 90 days as the 1/1/21 falls off your stay calendar on 30/6/21 as that is day 181 and the 90 days are rolling along, but at the end of that you cannot return until 90 days have elapsed. I hope this explains the 180 day rolling calendar.
Remember time in Paris, Greece or in Germany (anywhere in the Schengen area excepting Ireland) in between and they count 7 nights = 8 days and reduce your time in Spain
So in the above example without any other trip to the area on the 13th of December you can return and stay for up to 90 days.
Separate from that are
Spanish residency Rules
After 90 days in Spain you should apply for residence, if you stay 183 day you are considered Tax resident, these rules have always applied but often been ignored by Spain and expats, with the Schengen area rules being applied UK passport holders can expect that this will change (not the rules but the ease of avoidance)
Keeks wrote on Fri Sep 4, 2020 3:34am:
Hi you say except Ireland, what's the rule for Ireland?
Ireland is not in the Schengen area, at present, so after 1 January 2021 time spent in Ireland doesn’t count for the 90 day calculation.
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Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:38am
Peter3473 wrote on Thu Sep 3, 2020 2:33pm:
I am on the understanding, up to 90 days in the first 6 months, then another 90 days in the second 6 months.
As far as I’m aware,but getting confused, will all of it 🙄 ...... Here goes...... 90 days in, then out...... start counting 90......
Then you can return...... 🤔
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:59pm
Christina92 wrote on Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:38am:
As far as I’m aware,but getting confused, will all of it 🙄 ...... Here goes...... 90 days in, then out...... start counting 90......
Then you can return...... 🤔
That’s what I thought too. If you calculate it , it is 6 months.
Just not together.
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:09pm
Helpful member
Christina92 wrote on Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:38am:
As far as I’m aware,but getting confused, will all of it 🙄 ...... Here goes...... 90 days in, then out...... start counting 90......
Then you can return...... 🤔
No wrong, but could be right.
It is a rolling 180 days not 6 months
So if you are in the Schengen area for Jan 1 as day one, and leave on 31st Jan and leave for 31 days, you can return to the Schengen area, you can stay for 59 days.
But is you stop all Jan leave (31), no days in Feb, all March (31), no days in April, in May you can stop 28 days (90-31-31 = 28)
Day 181 is I think June 30, so you can return and stay 31 days as the days you were in the Schengen area in January drop out of the 180 day window
You can adjust these days to suit yourself it is about 50% of any month, if you want to come and go, it is 50% of a rolling 180 days, if you want to be in the Schengen area for 90 days you can do but you cannot return until day 181.
Sounds more complicated than it is, I assume when you visit your passport will be stamped as you will be using the non EU line, in the past it was empty now it will be full.
Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:05am
We have a holiday home in France and were thinking of selling this and having a place in Spain instead, we are both Irish passport holders but have no idea of the area, we want to be near the beach, bars, shops etc, I play golf and my wife likes a pool or swim in the sea, as we both speak French but no Spanish, although we are wanting to learn, we would would also want an apartment with a lift or ground floor apartment, we have up to £190K, can someone advise please.
We did look further down the coast in Mijas a year ago but the agent took us into hillsides away from anything
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