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Brexit

Posted: Tue Oct 1, 2019 8:26am
17 replies454 views8 members subscribed
Jeff58

Posts: 7

Location: Pinoso / El Pinós

3 helpful posts

Well what can I say my life is totally on hold thanks to Brexit .

I have my heart set on moving to Spain with my Wife and 5 children .

We intended to buy this year then move Aug next year after GCSE .

I still intend living in Spain as a citizen and to totally integrate.  I have Spanish family in Spain and have had for 40 years and now we want our new home to be in the Sunshine . There are many people living in Spain from outside the EU so I believe we will be excepted ! It seems Boris has his heart set on crashing out of the EU and making noises about pulling up the draw bridge ! If he is successful it will make life much harder as I would imagine the attitude of Government in Spain will change towards us . All my children want to go to Spanish school apart from one and he want to go to an international school after he finishes his GCSE here. Well fingers crossed we get another referendum and stay in FINGERS CROSSED !

RayD

RayD

Legendary helpful member

Tue Oct 1, 2019 2:38pm

Posts: 3340

Location: Catral

2311 helpful posts

Posted: Tue Oct 1, 2019 2:38pm

There is nothing to stop you moving to Spain! Don't put your plans on hold.

Brexit takes us out of the EU but you can still move to Spain as third country nationals, which we all become. Instead of applying to be an EU community resident, which we are at the moment, you will have to apply as a third country national, just as Swiss, Norwegian or Australian citizens have to.

Your plans seem eminently sensible and don't depend on you being an EU citizen. We will all have to get TIEs. Those of us who already have residence can swap the years we already have and don't have to declare our income. Newcomers after brexit will have to apply for TIEs from scratch and will be subject to an income check, and police check.

If there is a deal, which appears more unlikely every day, things will be on hold for the transition period anyway.

Kush

Tue Oct 1, 2019 11:29pm

Posts: 18

9 helpful posts

Posted: Tue Oct 1, 2019 11:29pm

We are in exact the same position Jeff, we are looking at properties at the moment, let's just hope Johnson shags brexit up like he has everything else he's ever done .

Kush

Stevec61

Stevec61

Helpful member

Wed Oct 2, 2019 9:16am

Posts: 409

Location: Playa Flamenca

278 helpful posts

Posted: Wed Oct 2, 2019 9:16am

There will never be another referendum (not in the next few years) - there will be a civil war if this is ever announced!!

Jaki

Wed Oct 2, 2019 11:28am

Posts: 14

Location: Pinoso / El Pinós

7 helpful posts

Posted: Wed Oct 2, 2019 11:28am

Yes, there's a lot of unrest in the UK, democracy is in a shambles and as yet no one with any sense has had sufficient support to pass anything in Westminster that would improve the lives of the people of Britain... I don't have a crystal ball but I can't see the UK leaving the EU this October

RayD

RayD

Legendary helpful member

Wed Oct 2, 2019 11:39am

Posts: 3340

Location: Catral

2311 helpful posts

Posted: Wed Oct 2, 2019 11:39am

Stevec61 wrote on Wed Oct 2, 2019 9:16am:

There will never be another referendum (not in the next few years) - there will be a civil war if this is ever announced!!

What will it be, wellies instead of umbrellas? 😊

RayD

RayD

Legendary helpful member

Wed Oct 2, 2019 11:41am

Posts: 3340

Location: Catral

2311 helpful posts

Posted: Wed Oct 2, 2019 11:41am

Jaki wrote on Wed Oct 2, 2019 11:28am:

Yes, there's a lot of unrest in the UK, democracy is in a shambles and as yet no one with any sense has had sufficient support to pass anything in Westminster that would improve the lives of the people of Britain... I don't have a crystal ball but I can't see the UK leaving the EU this October

Although I voted remain, as an expat, I just wish they would get brexit over - with no deal.

At least it would allow us to get on with our lives in our new country of choice. We can't get our TIEs until brexit.

Kimmy11

Kimmy11

Super helpful member

Wed Oct 2, 2019 3:55pm

Posts: 1619

1895 helpful posts

Posted: Wed Oct 2, 2019 3:55pm

RayD wrote on Tue Oct 1, 2019 2:38pm:

There is nothing to stop you moving to Spain! Don't put your plans on hold.

Brexit takes us out of the EU but you can still move to Spain as third country nationals, which we all become. Instead of applying to be an EU community resident, which we are at the moment, you will have to apply as a third country national, just as Swiss, Norwegian or Australian citizens have to.

Your plans seem eminently sensible and don't depend on you being an EU citizen. We will all have to get TIEs. Those of us who already have residence can swap the years we already have and don't have to declare our income. Newcomers after brexit will have to apply for TIEs from scratch and will be subject to an income check, and police check.

If there is a deal, which appears more unlikely every day, things will be on hold for the transition period anyway.

RayD,

What "transition period"?  If there's a "no deal" Brexit, there will be no 21-months transition period.

Also, in the event of a "no deal" Brexit:

-  the UK government is only guaranteeing annual increases to State pension until April 2022

-  the S1 system for reciprocal healthcare is only guaranteed until 31 December 2020

-  for non-residents, UK citizens will be subject to the restrictions of the Schengen Zone travel area, i.e. they will only able to spend a maximum of 90 days in a rolling 180 days in the travel area, and will require Visas and International Driving Permits for UK licence holders.

You seem confident that, as someone who holds a residency certificate, you won't have to prove the higher level of income required of Third Country nationals, but I have only seen that stated for residents who have already attained the 5 years "Settled Status".   As someone, like you, who will not have attained 5 years' residency by 31st October, I'm expecting to have to prove the higher income levels when we apply for our TIEs.  If you've seen something to the contrary, I'd be grateful if you'd share your source.  In any event, should we even be assuming that there will be a bilateral agreement protecting citizens' rights between the UK and Spain, when the EU could introduce community-wide law that takes precedence over such bilateral agreements?

The current deal is dreadful and certainly doesn't honour Brexit - it leaves the UK, at least for the transition period, still subject to EU laws, including trade.  But as a Remainer, I'm coming to the conclusion that I would rather leave with a lousy deal than no deal.

I agree that Jeff should still pursue his dream of living in Spain, but there's no doubt that a no-deal Brexit is going to make it much harder for many people.

Kind regards,

Kim

RayD

RayD

Legendary helpful member

Wed Oct 2, 2019 4:41pm

Posts: 3340

Location: Catral

2311 helpful posts

Posted: Wed Oct 2, 2019 4:41pm

Kim - in response, but not necessarily in order:

By transition period, I meant the 21 months that Spain has given us to transfer our residencias to TIEs. See 2.1 of the la moncloa document - not the brexit with a deal transition period. Sorry for confusion

2.2.2 says your residence certificate will be automatically replaced by a TIE at the police station. 2.4.2 says you don't need to provide proof of income. 2.5 refers to those being resident more than 5 years so I think the paras before were for general residency and under 5 years. My five years will be up in December 2020, so before the 21 months is up and will be subject to the two stage permanent TIE mentioned in the second part of 2.5.

The NHS letter dated 23 September says on Pensions

"If you receive a UK State Pension, your payments will automatically continue after 31 October 2019. Your pension is not affected by the UK leaving the EU.

Your UK State Pension will also be uprated in line with UK increases for 3 years up to and including 2022-23 while you are living in the EU. The government plans to negotiate an agreement with the EU to ensure your State Pension will carry on being uprated in the longer term." 

The same letter says "We are working hard to secure an arrangement with the EU or the country in which you live to continue current healthcare arrangements." 

If not, there is the prospect of the convenio especial.

I agree that non residents will be caught by the 90/180 Schengen travel arrangement, but they were always going to be subject to it, deal or no deal, even with the old May deal.

For residents, the TIE will cover us for travel throughout the EU.

If you think I've made any false assumptions, please point them out - I won't be offended. The link to the La Moncloa document in english is

https://www.lamoncloa.gob.es/lang/en/brexit/howtoprepare/Paginas/190108residence.aspx


Kimmy11

Kimmy11

Super helpful member

Wed Oct 2, 2019 6:44pm

Posts: 1619

1895 helpful posts

Posted: Wed Oct 2, 2019 6:44pm

Hi Ray,

I think more a matter of interpretation, rather than "false assumption".

Thanks for the clarification regarding the "transition period".

It's good to see that Moncloa's website doesn't reference permanent Resident Certificate, nor 5 years' Settled Status, so I'm happy to share your optimism - for the moment.....  ;o)

I think the NHS letter you refer to is the one issued by the NHS Business Services Authority?  (I'm not a pensioner, so I didn't receive one.)  I think it's disingenuous for them to state, "Your pension is not affected by the UK leaving the UK", and then to immediately follow that with, "Your UK State Pension will also be uprated in line with UK increases for 3 years up to and including 2022-23 while you are living in the EU. The government plans to negotiate an agreement with the EU to ensure your State Pension will carry on being uprated in the longer term."  This could have read, "Your UK State Pension will be affected if the government is not able to negotiate an agreement with the EU to continue uprating...." and, given their record thus far, is probably a more accurate interpretation.

Regarding the S1 scheme, "We are working hard to secure an arrangement with the EU or the country in which you live to continue current healthcare arrangements." is dubious, especially in view of the El Pais article, posted by Stan Bartolome last week ("Is this Project Fear too...?").  The report, "Spain will remove rights to British residents if it does not obtain equal treatment" follows a meeting in Madrid between the British Minister for Brexit, Steve Barclay, and Spain's Head of Diplomacy, the Foreign Minister, Josep Borrell, and Secretary of State for the EU, Luis Marco Aguiriano.  Both Spain and the EU are very concerned that the system developed by the UK for protecting citizens' rights does not reciprocate Spain's offer on a like-for-like basis, specifically in respect of "pre-resident status", nor is it enshrined in UK law.  Spain's position is that, until the UK reciprocates their offer, the "regulated measures" enacted in the Royal Decree in March this year will be suspended.  Potentially, that puts everything on Moncloa's website regarding post-Brexit citizens' rights in doubt.

I think all this demonstrates that for people like Jeff, who are trying to plan for a post-Brexit move, there's still too much uncertainty to ignore the potential downsides.

Kind regards,

Kim

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