2nd home owners - Brexit and the EU: living, holidaying and moving to Torrevieja - Torrevieja forum - Costa Blanca forum in the Alicante province of Spain
James Spanish School
AA Free English TV
Car Key Solutions
Costa Blanca Building Specialists
Blacktower Financial Management
Espana Dream Properties
Thy Will Be Done
Expat Services
Gran Alacant Insurances
Airport Service Taxi Mil Palmeras  Torre de la Horadada
Gentlevan Removals
ASSSA Insurance
interior building work
Jennifer Cunningham Insurances SL

Join the Torrevieja forum

Join the Torrevieja forumMy name's Alex and this is my website all about Torrevieja in Spain. Register now for free to talk about Brexit and the EU: living, holidaying and moving to Torrevieja and much more!

2nd home owners - Page 2

Davebev1

Posted: Thu Apr 1, 2021 10:25am

Davebev1

Legendary helpful member

Posts: 1558

2197 helpful points

Location: Playa Flamenca

Joined: 7 Nov 2017

Posted: Thu Apr 1, 2021 10:25am

Whilst the UK was a member of the EU Spain did not enforce the 90 day rule - the rule was always that if you intended to stay longer than 90 consecutive days then you had to apply for residency.  Spain's tax laws mean that (resident or not) if you stay 183+ days in a year then you must file a tax return on your world wide assets and pay due Spanish tax.  These have been greatly ignored and were hard for the Spanish to police for EU nationals, so they usually didn't.  With ETIAS coming online next year that will change for non-Schengen nationals anyway, so Brits would have started to be caught out next year.

The difference now is before we could stay 90 days, pop out of Spain for a weekend then return to Spain resetting the 90 day clock, so as long as the total days in a tax year stayed under 183 you were within the law.  Now it is 90 days per consecutive 180, but overall the amount of time you can spend in Spain in a year has not decreased.

The 90/180 day rule is a Schengen one so I think it unlikely that Spain can make an exception for second home owners unless the other Schengen countries do too, and then it would need to be for all third country nationals with second homes, not just Brits.  Right now every country has more pressing things to worry about, so I don't think a few thousand disgruntled foreign home owners will be high on their priority list for some time to come.  And yes, the TCN rules do affect my future plans too, so I am just as frustrated by it as others, but it is a direct consequence of the UK's decision to the leave the Single Market as well as the EU, so not Spain's (or the EU's) fault.

Aspen1992

Posted: Thu Apr 1, 2021 12:59pm

Aspen1992

Helpful member

Posts: 367

319 helpful points

Location: Villamartin

Joined: 16 May 2020

Posted: Thu Apr 1, 2021 12:59pm

This may sound harsh but to me the ones that are blowing their trumpet more are the ones that have camped in Spain for years paying little to the UK or Spain doing cash work and sunning it up, now the shit has hit the fan and its all come tumbling down on top of them they are tugging on heart strings claiming they are being hard done to.... well suck it up buttercup as this day was always around the corner it was only a matter of time before the bombshell dropped.

There are so many people complaining that we have been hard done to, well the majority have spoken and we all now have to walk that road whatever its outcome, I voted to stay although many around me voted to leave I hope I am proved wrong but lets see what will be will be.

L181SKY

Posted: Thu Apr 1, 2021 3:32pm

L181SKY

Helpful member

Posts: 410

283 helpful points

Location: Santa Pola

Joined: 15 Mar 2020

Posted: Thu Apr 1, 2021 3:32pm

Aspen1992 wrote on Thu Apr 1, 2021 12:59pm:

This may sound harsh but to me the ones that are blowing their trumpet more are the ones that have camped in Spain for years paying little to the UK or Spain doing cash work and sunning it up, now the shit has hit the fan and its all come tumbling down on top of them they are tugging on heart str...

...ings claiming they are being hard done to.... well suck it up buttercup as this day was always around the corner it was only a matter of time before the bombshell dropped.

There are so many people complaining that we have been hard done to, well the majority have spoken and we all now have to walk that road whatever its outcome, I voted to stay although many around me voted to leave I hope I am proved wrong but lets see what will be will be.

This op was only saying she would expect to have been able to use her 2nd home for longer than 90 days, obviously she knows she has 180/365.  so probably means use the 180 in a row.  It may come to pass that that will happen.  After all, what is the difference of 90/180 or 180/365.   I would like to know where all these people are that are living under the radar!   I don’t know any and I’m sure they are not in the majority but it’s ENTIRELY THEIR OWN BUSINESS.   All we hear Continually and it’s Boring now is about the people who have been UNDER THE  RADAR. I’m so sick of it.   Harping on and on and on.   There are people who did Not hide under this Radar for years and years !   I’m one of them.  There are many decent honest people who do not want to break any residency rules,believe it or not.    People who have invested in Spain by buying their future retirement homes.  Also in some cases i’m sure  Spending many hundreds of thousands of Pounds . I’m sure that’s not the people you all are continually Accusing of hiding under the Radar !   It’s disgusting reading this over and over and over again.   The people who had planned for their retirement , maybe like me who also had a LOT of property in U.K. and were not ready to take up residency and pay half of what we had accrued over our working lives in “Holiday home tax “ to the Hacienda, as that’s what all our properties would become.      Who would, seriously ?   So, we didn’t vote for it, didn’t plan for it ,got caught out by being Unable to move to Spain , which I don’t want to anyway. ,but with the attitudes of quite frankly Too many “i’m alright Jacks “ ex Pats it’s sickening.  So, when you read a post of someone, a decent person ,states how she would like to have more time at her home in the EU, or at least be able to use the allowance of 180 / 365. in a way that suits her.  not having to return every 90 days ,it’s fine if you are flying but driving is so different so get over yourselves. Please. Have a bit of Empathy for Gods sake. 

L181SKY

Posted: Thu Apr 1, 2021 4:00pm

L181SKY

Helpful member

Posts: 410

283 helpful points

Location: Santa Pola

Joined: 15 Mar 2020

Posted: Thu Apr 1, 2021 4:00pm

Davebev1 wrote on Thu Apr 1, 2021 10:25am:

Whilst the UK was a member of the EU Spain did not enforce the 90 day rule - the rule was always that if you intended to stay longer than 90 consecutive days then you had to apply for residency.  Spain's tax laws mean that (resident or not) if you stay 183+ days in a year then you must file ...

...a tax return on your world wide assets and pay due Spanish tax.  These have been greatly ignored and were hard for the Spanish to police for EU nationals, so they usually didn't.  With ETIAS coming online next year that will change for non-Schengen nationals anyway, so Brits would have started to be caught out next year.

The difference now is before we could stay 90 days, pop out of Spain for a weekend then return to Spain resetting the 90 day clock, so as long as the total days in a tax year stayed under 183 you were within the law.  Now it is 90 days per consecutive 180, but overall the amount of time you can spend in Spain in a year has not decreased.

The 90/180 day rule is a Schengen one so I think it unlikely that Spain can make an exception for second home owners unless the other Schengen countries do too, and then it would need to be for all third country nationals with second homes, not just Brits.  Right now every country has more pressing things to worry about, so I don't think a few thousand disgruntled foreign home owners will be high on their priority list for some time to come.  And yes, the TCN rules do affect my future plans too, so I am just as frustrated by it as others, but it is a direct consequence of the UK's decision to the leave the Single Market as well as the EU, so not Spain's (or the EU's) fault.

I think it’s no so much that people want more time in Spain but that they want to be able to go to Spain for the 180 in a row or whatever way suits them.  After all what difference would that really make? You said yourself, over 183 and you are fiscally resident ,if they can track 90/180 they can track 180/365

Davebev1

Posted: Thu Apr 1, 2021 4:30pm

Davebev1

Legendary helpful member

Posts: 1558

2197 helpful points

Location: Playa Flamenca

Joined: 7 Nov 2017

Posted: Thu Apr 1, 2021 4:30pm

L181SKY wrote on Thu Apr 1, 2021 4:00pm:

I think it’s no so much that people want more time in Spain but that they want to be able to go to Spain for the 180 in a row or whatever way suits them.  After all what difference would that really make? You said yourself, over 183 and you are fiscally resident ,if they can track 90/180 t...

...hey can track 180/365

I agree that more flexibility would be useful, I'd love to hope that one day that flexibility will happen, but these are the pre-existing third country rules that have been in place for a long time for the Schengen zone.  We cannot expect all the Schengen countries, with the other EU countries agreement, to prioritise reviewing the rules just to suit one small group of people from one third country during a world-wide pandemic.  If they change it for one they will have to change it for all TCNs.  The only people who caused the change in status of British people, and therefore caused this problem, is the British government when they decided that we should not just leave the EU but also leave the Single Market, thereby removing our freedom of movement and imposing Third Country National status on all Brits travelling to the EU.  Spain, the EU or any other country, did not bring about the change, so I just feel (sadly) we are living in false hope expecting them to change everything just for a relatively small number of people who are now inconvenienced by something their own government did to them.  

Advertisement - posts continue below

Dianne

Posted: Thu Apr 1, 2021 4:30pm

Dianne

Original Poster

Posts: 18

19 helpful points

Location: Torrevieja

Joined: 19 Jul 2016

Posted: Thu Apr 1, 2021 4:30pm

L181SKY wrote on Thu Apr 1, 2021 3:32pm:

This op was only saying she would expect to have been able to use her 2nd home for longer than 90 days, obviously she knows she has 180/365.  so probably means use the 180 in a row.  It may come to pass that that will happen.  After all, what is the difference of 90/180 or 180/365....

...   I would like to know where all these people are that are living under the radar!   I don’t know any and I’m sure they are not in the majority but it’s ENTIRELY THEIR OWN BUSINESS.   All we hear Continually and it’s Boring now is about the people who have been UNDER THE  RADAR. I’m so sick of it.   Harping on and on and on.   There are people who did Not hide under this Radar for years and years !   I’m one of them.  There are many decent honest people who do not want to break any residency rules,believe it or not.    People who have invested in Spain by buying their future retirement homes.  Also in some cases i’m sure  Spending many hundreds of thousands of Pounds . I’m sure that’s not the people you all are continually Accusing of hiding under the Radar !   It’s disgusting reading this over and over and over again.   The people who had planned for their retirement , maybe like me who also had a LOT of property in U.K. and were not ready to take up residency and pay half of what we had accrued over our working lives in “Holiday home tax “ to the Hacienda, as that’s what all our properties would become.      Who would, seriously ?   So, we didn’t vote for it, didn’t plan for it ,got caught out by being Unable to move to Spain , which I don’t want to anyway. ,but with the attitudes of quite frankly Too many “i’m alright Jacks “ ex Pats it’s sickening.  So, when you read a post of someone, a decent person ,states how she would like to have more time at her home in the EU, or at least be able to use the allowance of 180 / 365. in a way that suits her.  not having to return every 90 days ,it’s fine if you are flying but driving is so different so get over yourselves. Please. Have a bit of Empathy for Gods sake. 

Well said. Cheers

Aspen1992

Posted: Thu Apr 1, 2021 5:01pm

Aspen1992

Helpful member

Posts: 367

319 helpful points

Location: Villamartin

Joined: 16 May 2020

Posted: Thu Apr 1, 2021 5:01pm

L181SKY wrote on Thu Apr 1, 2021 3:32pm:

This op was only saying she would expect to have been able to use her 2nd home for longer than 90 days, obviously she knows she has 180/365.  so probably means use the 180 in a row.  It may come to pass that that will happen.  After all, what is the difference of 90/180 or 180/365....

...   I would like to know where all these people are that are living under the radar!   I don’t know any and I’m sure they are not in the majority but it’s ENTIRELY THEIR OWN BUSINESS.   All we hear Continually and it’s Boring now is about the people who have been UNDER THE  RADAR. I’m so sick of it.   Harping on and on and on.   There are people who did Not hide under this Radar for years and years !   I’m one of them.  There are many decent honest people who do not want to break any residency rules,believe it or not.    People who have invested in Spain by buying their future retirement homes.  Also in some cases i’m sure  Spending many hundreds of thousands of Pounds . I’m sure that’s not the people you all are continually Accusing of hiding under the Radar !   It’s disgusting reading this over and over and over again.   The people who had planned for their retirement , maybe like me who also had a LOT of property in U.K. and were not ready to take up residency and pay half of what we had accrued over our working lives in “Holiday home tax “ to the Hacienda, as that’s what all our properties would become.      Who would, seriously ?   So, we didn’t vote for it, didn’t plan for it ,got caught out by being Unable to move to Spain , which I don’t want to anyway. ,but with the attitudes of quite frankly Too many “i’m alright Jacks “ ex Pats it’s sickening.  So, when you read a post of someone, a decent person ,states how she would like to have more time at her home in the EU, or at least be able to use the allowance of 180 / 365. in a way that suits her.  not having to return every 90 days ,it’s fine if you are flying but driving is so different so get over yourselves. Please. Have a bit of Empathy for Gods sake. 

I myself are one of these also who haven't hid paid my dues for years in the UK & Spain but I am also friendly with alot of people who have and regardless of what you or I think the reality of these now having to comeback to the UK is real.

As you and your friend need to realise that there are rules and there were rules before but weren't implemented as tightly now the noose has tightened with us leaving the EU, you say she finds its not suiting her needs unfortunately we are all in the same boat we all have to follow the rule of 90/180 but I am not forever whining that I cant go out now as I want its the way it is so get over it nothing is going to change short term doesn't matter how many petitions you sign.

I drive down everytime I go so again I am in the same boat as you, and yes I would love to be able to go when I want but I know I cant so I will have to adapt to the new rules not much else to say really 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️

L181SKY

Posted: Thu Apr 1, 2021 7:14pm

L181SKY

Helpful member

Posts: 410

283 helpful points

Location: Santa Pola

Joined: 15 Mar 2020

Posted: Thu Apr 1, 2021 7:14pm

Davebev1 wrote on Thu Apr 1, 2021 4:30pm:

I agree that more flexibility would be useful, I'd love to hope that one day that flexibility will happen, but these are the pre-existing third country rules that have been in place for a long time for the Schengen zone.  We cannot expect all the Schengen countries, with the other EU countri...

...es agreement, to prioritise reviewing the rules just to suit one small group of people from one third country during a world-wide pandemic.  If they change it for one they will have to change it for all TCNs.  The only people who caused the change in status of British people, and therefore caused this problem, is the British government when they decided that we should not just leave the EU but also leave the Single Market, thereby removing our freedom of movement and imposing Third Country National status on all Brits travelling to the EU.  Spain, the EU or any other country, did not bring about the change, so I just feel (sadly) we are living in false hope expecting them to change everything just for a relatively small number of people who are now inconvenienced by something their own government did to them.  

So, that’s a couple of minutes I won’t get back.   I’ve had a place in Spain since 2002. I know this ,as does everyone else. zzzzzz

L181SKY

Posted: Thu Apr 1, 2021 9:03pm

L181SKY

Helpful member

Posts: 410

283 helpful points

Location: Santa Pola

Joined: 15 Mar 2020

Posted: Thu Apr 1, 2021 9:03pm

Hi Diane. I’ve joined a fb page titled.  180 days in Spain.  have a wee look.  

PhilElChaparral

Posted: Mon Apr 5, 2021 1:26am

Posts: 22

15 helpful points

Location: Torrevieja

Joined: 7 Feb 2019

Posted: Mon Apr 5, 2021 1:26am

I pay non-resident taxes etc in Spain, so put money into the system in Spain, and when I eventually get my TIE will pay far more.

People who are so called 'under the radar', aside paying taxes, contribute to Spain's economy massively on a daily basis.

Tourists by comparison to residual residents contribute little in their two week stay; residual residents spend money each and everyday of the year.

This 90/180 rule will soon not affect me, however spare a thought for people who have by design, invested in Spain to relieve themselves from pain during a period of 6 months of UK winters.....I doubt the rulings will suffice.

I Believe that the Spanish Government's strict adherence to this ruling will be detrimental to current homeowners and certainly future homeowners as their post Brexit ideology of only attracting the relatively wealthy will kill the property market.

Little or no thought has been bestowed upon the fact that thousands of Ex-Pats of all nationalities that have invested into  Spain's economy a country that was virtually bankrupt not that long ago and these very people find themselves curfewed from the very bricks and mortar that they invested in and are still expected to pay taxes on second homes, not for 180 days but 365 days a year.

Double Standards?

Sign up for free or login to reply to this topic

Want to reply to this topic? Login or register for free to post your message:

Find more Brexit and the EU topics from a particular area:


Register for free!

Login to your account

James Spanish School
AA Free English TV
Car Key Solutions
Costa Blanca Building Specialists
Blacktower Financial Management
Espana Dream Properties
Thy Will Be Done
Expat Services
Gran Alacant Insurances
Airport Service Taxi Mil Palmeras  Torre de la Horadada
Gentlevan Removals
ASSSA Insurance
interior building work
Jennifer Cunningham Insurances SL
Advertise your business here
Advertise your property
Help with my computer