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Touristic laws - Annoying Tourists

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:58am
11 replies364 views5 members subscribed
Ahamka

Posts: 7

1 helpful points

Location: Torrevieja

Joined: 19 Oct 2021

Hello,

We have a touristic flat in Torrevieja. We've never had any issue with our flat until today. Sone touristic are complaining all, harassing our concierge (calling every 30 min/hours) since the first day. We even sent them a totally new fridge because they were complaining that the old one was not working properly, but they don't stop.

It really looks like they just want a discount. They are threatening us to complain everywhere, to go to the police, to make us lose our touristic license.

Before the pandemic, our profile on booking.com had 8,7 satisfaction. We had to restart a new profile with 0 reviews. 

They are still in the flat for another week. We proposed to them to give them back the last week if they leave the flat and find something else, but it looks like they don't want to. I really don't care about the money now, I just want them to leave.

Can they really do us damages if they complain? Can we lose our touristic licence? 

Davebev1

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:19am

Davebev1

Legendary helpful member

Posts: 1574

2227 helpful points

Location: Playa Flamenca

Joined: 7 Nov 2017

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:19am

File a complaint with booking - not sure how it is done with that site because I don't use them but on other sites the guests can be rated just as the owners/property can.  I presume you use a full contract with the rental terms and community rules included that they signed, so if they are breaching those terms or breaking community rules you have every right to ask them to leave.  

Speak to the concierge - does he/she have grounds to call in the police because of noise or nuisance issues to others?  What type of things are they contacting the concierge about?  What is the role of your community's concierge?

Can I ask a few questions to clarify the situation please?  Who looks after your property in Spain?  You must have someone local handling the check-ins and cleaning, so have they been to see the renters?  Who checked whether the fridge was working properly before you bought the new one?  Are these complaints in writing or verbal?  Have you approached the community president or admin for assistance?  What does your contract say for procedure regarding renters' complaints, specifically on when and how complaints should be reported, and are they following that procedure?

My gut reaction is they are the type who get a weird kick out of doing this type of thing.  Did you speak to them before taking the booking or did they use a type of instant booking so you had no contact beforehand?  Are they a family or a group of adults and if adults what sort of age range?

Sorry to ask so much.  You can PM me if you prefer rather than putting details on the public forum.

Ahamka

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:31am

Ahamka

Original Poster

Posts: 7

1 helpful points

Location: Torrevieja

Joined: 19 Oct 2021

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:31am

Davebev1 wrote on Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:19am:

File a complaint with booking - not sure how it is done with that site because I don't use them but on other sites the guests can be rated just as the owners/property can.  I presume you use a full contract with the rental terms and community rules included that they signed, so if they are b...

...reaching those terms or breaking community rules you have every right to ask them to leave.  

Speak to the concierge - does he/she have grounds to call in the police because of noise or nuisance issues to others?  What type of things are they contacting the concierge about?  What is the role of your community's concierge?

Can I ask a few questions to clarify the situation please?  Who looks after your property in Spain?  You must have someone local handling the check-ins and cleaning, so have they been to see the renters?  Who checked whether the fridge was working properly before you bought the new one?  Are these complaints in writing or verbal?  Have you approached the community president or admin for assistance?  What does your contract say for procedure regarding renters' complaints, specifically on when and how complaints should be reported, and are they following that procedure?

My gut reaction is they are the type who get a weird kick out of doing this type of thing.  Did you speak to them before taking the booking or did they use a type of instant booking so you had no contact beforehand?  Are they a family or a group of adults and if adults what sort of age range?

Sorry to ask so much.  You can PM me if you prefer rather than putting details on the public forum.

What I called a concierge is the person handling the checking and the cleaning of my flat. This is this person that gets harassed by the tourists. My building has no concierge. We are also paying a company that handles all the marketing and help us with all the decisions. But they seem to be overwhelmed by this situation right now.

The booking was made with booking.com. So we don't have any contracts with the tourists. The company managing our flat phone to booking.com to fill a complaint about the customers, but from what I understood, they don't really care. 

We sent a technician for the fridge. On the first day, he did a diagnostic of all the issues. The second day, he came back with a new fridge and made a total clean-up of our AC system. 

The tourists lied to us as they said they were booking for only 2 people but they are 5 people in my flat right now, and I believe with children. My flat has only 4 places, so not sure how they are dealing with it. 

Davebev1

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:38am

Davebev1

Legendary helpful member

Posts: 1574

2227 helpful points

Location: Playa Flamenca

Joined: 7 Nov 2017

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:38am

Ahamka wrote on Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:31am:

What I called a concierge is the person handling the checking and the cleaning of my flat. This is this person that gets harassed by the tourists. My building has no concierge. We are also paying a company that handles all the marketing and help us with all the decisions. But they seem to be over...

...whelmed by this situation right now.

The booking was made with booking.com. So we don't have any contracts with the tourists. The company managing our flat phone to booking.com to fill a complaint about the customers, but from what I understood, they don't really care. 

We sent a technician for the fridge. On the first day, he did a diagnostic of all the issues. The second day, he came back with a new fridge and made a total clean-up of our AC system. 

The tourists lied to us as they said they were booking for only 2 people but they are 5 people in my flat right now, and I believe with children. My flat has only 4 places, so not sure how they are dealing with it. 

The fridge was a fully valid complaint by the sounds of it, it wasn't working and needed replacing, so I cannot see why you or the agent would complain about a renter asking for working appliances, or you having to replace it - it is up to you/agent to ensure appliances are fit for purpose and replace if they are not.  Did your agent check the fridge was working when the last guests left, if not why not?  Surely that is included in the cleaning and post-stay checks.  Who is responsible for sorting air con servicing - you or the agent?  If so when was it last done?  Your air con should have annual servicing by a certified engineer so should not have needed any additional cleaning, but good that if needed it that it was done.  Check when units were last serviced.

So no concierge.  You pay an agent/management company to handle all the bookings, check-ins and cleans?  How many people did the agent check-in?  Where were these extra people when the check-in was done?  You can't hide children easily!  Did they allow more people into the apartment than were booked instead of only those on the contract?  Not surprised no help from Booking sadly (I won't use that sort of platform).  However the agent is at fault if they allowed people to enter the property that were not included in the booking, not the booking platform used.  The agent also breaching your License in so doing that, and are invalidating your insurance too, (assuming you have full holiday letting and public liability insurance) so if the agent allowed the extra people in then problem was caused by the agent as much as buy the renters and the agent should be taking responsibility.  You pay an agent to handle everything for you but they aren't handling it.  Without seeing the contract the renters signed or the contract you have with the agent I cannot say who is breaching what, but certainly sounds like someone is.  

Look at your contract with your agent.  Who is responsible for what?  How much say do you have over the bookings, who stays and when, and how much do they have?  Sounds like you are using an 'instant booking' option which I would never recommend, I believe even on Booking it can be changed so there is contact before accepting a booking.  Are your agents registering guests on the Hospedarias/Guardia Civil site properly (check-in) on your behalf on arrival?  If not who is handling that?

What are the other matters the renters are complaining about?  So far you have only mentioned the fridge, which was a valid complaint, and cleaning of air con, which is also a valid complaint.  I find it hard to believe they are phoning the agent every 30 minutes to an hour all day and every day for a week with new complaints, so find out from the agent what is really going on.  

Ahamka

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 12:46pm

Ahamka

Original Poster

Posts: 7

1 helpful points

Location: Torrevieja

Joined: 19 Oct 2021

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 12:46pm

Davebev1 wrote on Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:38am:

The fridge was a fully valid complaint by the sounds of it, it wasn't working and needed replacing, so I cannot see why you or the agent would complain about a renter asking for working appliances, or you having to replace it - it is up to you/agent to ensure appliances are fit for purpose a...

...nd replace if they are not.  Did your agent check the fridge was working when the last guests left, if not why not?  Surely that is included in the cleaning and post-stay checks.  Who is responsible for sorting air con servicing - you or the agent?  If so when was it last done?  Your air con should have annual servicing by a certified engineer so should not have needed any additional cleaning, but good that if needed it that it was done.  Check when units were last serviced.

So no concierge.  You pay an agent/management company to handle all the bookings, check-ins and cleans?  How many people did the agent check-in?  Where were these extra people when the check-in was done?  You can't hide children easily!  Did they allow more people into the apartment than were booked instead of only those on the contract?  Not surprised no help from Booking sadly (I won't use that sort of platform).  However the agent is at fault if they allowed people to enter the property that were not included in the booking, not the booking platform used.  The agent also breaching your License in so doing that, and are invalidating your insurance too, (assuming you have full holiday letting and public liability insurance) so if the agent allowed the extra people in then problem was caused by the agent as much as buy the renters and the agent should be taking responsibility.  You pay an agent to handle everything for you but they aren't handling it.  Without seeing the contract the renters signed or the contract you have with the agent I cannot say who is breaching what, but certainly sounds like someone is.  

Look at your contract with your agent.  Who is responsible for what?  How much say do you have over the bookings, who stays and when, and how much do they have?  Sounds like you are using an 'instant booking' option which I would never recommend, I believe even on Booking it can be changed so there is contact before accepting a booking.  Are your agents registering guests on the Hospedarias/Guardia Civil site properly (check-in) on your behalf on arrival?  If not who is handling that?

What are the other matters the renters are complaining about?  So far you have only mentioned the fridge, which was a valid complaint, and cleaning of air con, which is also a valid complaint.  I find it hard to believe they are phoning the agent every 30 minutes to an hour all day and every day for a week with new complaints, so find out from the agent what is really going on.  

The complaint was valid for the fridge and we react as soon as they complained by sending a technician and changing the fridge. Unfortunately, it was on the 24th, so during a bank holiday in Spain, and they had to wait an additional day before receiving the new fridge. 

The thing is they are really harassing our cleaning lady. Even though we gave them a time and day for the technician, they kept calling the cleaning lady, complaining about the same issue non-stop. Sometimes, they are just making her phone ring and hang up when she answers. 

They are still complaining about the AC even though the technician took care of it. After their new complaints, we tried to send the technician again. We told them a day in advance when he's gonna come but they were not present in the flat. So we have no clue what is happening. 

Now they are blackmailing us, threatening us to destroy the flat. And as expected, they asked for their money back. When the cleaning lady will take the key back, she will go there with 3 other men because the situation seems super insafe at this point. 

That is why my main question was what can they really do if we can lose our license or not. Because we are trying to solve all their issues, but they are not cooperative and threatening us. 

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Davebev1

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 1:17pm

Davebev1

Legendary helpful member

Posts: 1574

2227 helpful points

Location: Playa Flamenca

Joined: 7 Nov 2017

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 1:17pm

Ahamka wrote on Thu Jun 30, 2022 12:46pm:

The complaint was valid for the fridge and we react as soon as they complained by sending a technician and changing the fridge. Unfortunately, it was on the 24th, so during a bank holiday in Spain, and they had to wait an additional day before receiving the new fridge. 

The thing is they are really harassing our cleaning lady. Even though we gave them a time and day for the technician, they kept calling the cleaning lady, complaining about the same issue non-stop. Sometimes, they are just making her phone ring and hang up when she answers. ...

...

They are still complaining about the AC even though the technician took care of it. After their new complaints, we tried to send the technician again. We told them a day in advance when he's gonna come but they were not present in the flat. So we have no clue what is happening. 

Now they are blackmailing us, threatening us to destroy the flat. And as expected, they asked for their money back. When the cleaning lady will take the key back, she will go there with 3 other men because the situation seems super insafe at this point. 

That is why my main question was what can they really do if we can lose our license or not. Because we are trying to solve all their issues, but they are not cooperative and threatening us. 

You won't lose your License but you may find they mark you down on booking when they do the review.  You have the right of reply to all reviews posted and if the allegations can be shown as malicious then Booking have a duty to remove them from the public domain.  

If the renters are harassing the cleaning lady then it is up to her to contact the police and get that dealt with - nuisance calls are illegal in Spain too and she will be able to show all her call data to the police. 

As they are threatening to destroy the flat, and if that has been put in a text or recorded phone call (your cleaner needs to record the calls on her phone) then the police need to be contacted immediately.  If they are trying to blackmail you then that is also a crime so again involve the police.

I would concentrate now on the agent/cleaning lady involving the police over the harassments and threats.  These are police matters.

You can show that you acted fully and quickly regarding the situation with the fridge, however if it wasn't working properly when they arrived then you need to try and address the issue as to why that had been missed by the agent when post-stay/pre-stay checks were done.  Same with air con - if you can show it was fully serviced and engineer visited and said all fine then you acted appropriately and quickly.

You haven't said who checked the renters into the property or if the extra people were present at check-in.  Once the guests have left there will be time to review practices and see how things can be improved with your booking system and agents to avoid these things in the future.  Sheer curiosity, but what nationality are the renters?

Ahamka

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:53pm

Ahamka

Original Poster

Posts: 7

1 helpful points

Location: Torrevieja

Joined: 19 Oct 2021

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:53pm

Davebev1 wrote on Thu Jun 30, 2022 1:17pm:

You won't lose your License but you may find they mark you down on booking when they do the review.  You have the right of reply to all reviews posted and if the allegations can be shown as malicious then Booking have a duty to remove them from the public domain.  

If the renters are harassing the cleaning lady then it is up to her to contact the police and get that dealt with - nuisance calls are illegal in Spain too and she will be able to show all her call data to the police. ...

...

As they are threatening to destroy the flat, and if that has been put in a text or recorded phone call (your cleaner needs to record the calls on her phone) then the police need to be contacted immediately.  If they are trying to blackmail you then that is also a crime so again involve the police.

I would concentrate now on the agent/cleaning lady involving the police over the harassments and threats.  These are police matters.

You can show that you acted fully and quickly regarding the situation with the fridge, however if it wasn't working properly when they arrived then you need to try and address the issue as to why that had been missed by the agent when post-stay/pre-stay checks were done.  Same with air con - if you can show it was fully serviced and engineer visited and said all fine then you acted appropriately and quickly.

You haven't said who checked the renters into the property or if the extra people were present at check-in.  Once the guests have left there will be time to review practices and see how things can be improved with your booking system and agents to avoid these things in the future.  Sheer curiosity, but what nationality are the renters?

I believe our agency already told the cleaning lady to contact the police if it becomes too much. 

We are gathering all the evidence showing that we are trying the solve this issue. 

At first, I wanted to give them a discount for the first days when the fridge was not working properly, but seeing their toxic behaviour now, it's out of the question.

The cleaning lady checked the renters when they enter the flat. I have no clue if they were only 2 or more at this time. 

And yes you're right. We will need to speak with our agency at some point. Before them, we had a really good agency and they were doing everything for us, we didn't have to manage anything. Sadly they went bankrupt with covid. For some weird reason, our new agency thought we didn't have a touristic license, so they were super worried about the threats. They haven't put the tourist number of booking, so we think that these tourists think we are not legal so they are trying to scare us. We definitely need to put things in order. 

The tourists are french but it's one of their Spanish friend that call the cleaning lady all the time. 

Davebev1

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:18pm

Davebev1

Legendary helpful member

Posts: 1574

2227 helpful points

Location: Playa Flamenca

Joined: 7 Nov 2017

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:18pm

Ahamka wrote on Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:53pm:

I believe our agency already told the cleaning lady to contact the police if it becomes too much. 

We are gathering all the evidence showing that we are trying the solve this issue. 

At first, I wanted to give them a discount for the first days when the fridge was not working properly, but seeing their toxic behaviour now, it's out of the question.

The cleaning lady checked the renters when they enter the flat. I have no clue if they were only 2 or more at this time. 

And yes you're right. We will need to speak with our agency at some point. Before them, we had a really good agency and they were doing everything for us, we didn't have to manage anything. Sadly they went bankrupt with covid. For some weird reason, our new agency thought we didn't have a touristic license, so they were super worried about the threats. They haven't put the tourist number of booking, so we think that these tourists think we are not legal so they are trying to scare us. We definitely need to put things in order. 

The tourists are french but it's one of their Spanish friend that call the cleaning lady all the time. 

First, your agency is in the wrong to even consider advertising a property for holiday lets that they thought wasn't licensed.  Fines are big if caught letting unlicensed properties, even advertising them isn't permitted.  Second, ALL forms of advertising are required to display your License number on the advert, so without a number being displayed the listing on Booking is in breach of the terms of your License.  An agency can advertise and let your property using their agency number instead on the ads but they can still need to have proof that the property itself is Licensed.   

Are the agency registering your guests on arrival?  It is a requirement that the guests are registered on the Hospederias website on arrival.  If they are using a cleaner to just let people in then they are obviously not following the registration process.  That is another breach of Licensing regulations, and a serious one.

Why would the agency think you are not Licensed anyway, they have surely seen the property so surely saw your Tourist License official red plaque.  Do you have one?  If not get it asap as required.  It needs to be on display (required under regulations) by the front door - can be inside or outside but must be on display.  You should also have the correct official complaints forms (or the agency should) and be displaying the official sign saying they are available.

It is the agency, not the cleaner, who should be dealing with the guests.  Why have they got the telephone number for the cleaner?  She has every right to block the number on her phone as they should not be calling her about anything!  They should be calling the agency and the agency should be doing what they are paid to do.  I am now wondering if the cleaner is working for cash, not registered as self-employed and not registered as an employee of the agency either.  That would also explain their reluctance to involve the police.  I suspect that the guests know they have not been properly registered on arrival, they can't see anything to say the property is Licensed and the cleaner is putting up with abuse from them, so the renters think they have you over a barrel because they are assuming with so many irregularities that its an illegal let.

Sounds like you need a new management team asap.  Start looking and replace as soon as you can.  Line up a few to interview when you can next visit, write down a list of questions to ask them, check they are a legit business.  

Ahamka

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:50pm

Ahamka

Original Poster

Posts: 7

1 helpful points

Location: Torrevieja

Joined: 19 Oct 2021

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:50pm

Davebev1 wrote on Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:18pm:

First, your agency is in the wrong to even consider advertising a property for holiday lets that they thought wasn't licensed.  Fines are big if caught letting unlicensed properties, even advertising them isn't permitted.  Second, ALL forms of advertising are required to display your Li...

...cense number on the advert, so without a number being displayed the listing on Booking is in breach of the terms of your License.  An agency can advertise and let your property using their agency number instead on the ads but they can still need to have proof that the property itself is Licensed.   

Are the agency registering your guests on arrival?  It is a requirement that the guests are registered on the Hospederias website on arrival.  If they are using a cleaner to just let people in then they are obviously not following the registration process.  That is another breach of Licensing regulations, and a serious one.

Why would the agency think you are not Licensed anyway, they have surely seen the property so surely saw your Tourist License official red plaque.  Do you have one?  If not get it asap as required.  It needs to be on display (required under regulations) by the front door - can be inside or outside but must be on display.  You should also have the correct official complaints forms (or the agency should) and be displaying the official sign saying they are available.

It is the agency, not the cleaner, who should be dealing with the guests.  Why have they got the telephone number for the cleaner?  She has every right to block the number on her phone as they should not be calling her about anything!  They should be calling the agency and the agency should be doing what they are paid to do.  I am now wondering if the cleaner is working for cash, not registered as self-employed and not registered as an employee of the agency either.  That would also explain their reluctance to involve the police.  I suspect that the guests know they have not been properly registered on arrival, they can't see anything to say the property is Licensed and the cleaner is putting up with abuse from them, so the renters think they have you over a barrel because they are assuming with so many irregularities that its an illegal let.

Sounds like you need a new management team asap.  Start looking and replace as soon as you can.  Line up a few to interview when you can next visit, write down a list of questions to ask them, check they are a legit business.  

You're right, I was very baffled when I learned that our agency thought we didn't have a license number. Especially since we gave them all the information we had. I thought the number was displayed on our door as it should be, but I guess I was wrong. 

I have no clue if they are registering the guests and it's something we should ask. 

It's annoying me because I really tried to be as legal as possible when we opened this business. I am struggling with the communication because the agency, cleaning lady, and even the technician are all Polish and don't speak English. It is my polish husband that takes care of everything. Our previous agency was also polish but they were at least speaking English and I made sure with them that everything was done properly. 

Ampstar

Posted: Wed Jul 6, 2022 1:09pm

Posts: 55

26 helpful points

Location: Torrevieja

Joined: 1 Jul 2019

Posted: Wed Jul 6, 2022 1:09pm

Why is all the blame put on the renter? It seems now that complaining and wanting a refund is rife now, whether it be for renting a property short term, having a meal at restaurants, buying a car etc., etc. Not only they want money back, but also want more money or they will post this on social media. It is basically blackmail.

Report it the fact that they threaten to smash the place to the police, which they may see as threatening behaviour. Record all conversations, either in audio on on paper with times and what was said.

These blackmailers need stopping in their tracks, it is so common now (just Google it). If you say you will throw them out today, you watch how fast they will go to the police.

Do you have their address in France? You could always get someone to go squat in their house seeing as it is empty (that is a joke by the way, don't actually do it).

Good luck.

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