Covid19 are we being told the truth

A serious subject but can you clarify if you are discussing the situation in the U.K. or in Spain as will be a difference between the two countries and the way the crisis has been handled in each.

On the Virus causing no more deaths than the annual Flu, the numbers dying from Covid 19 could be multiplied several times if it were not for the Lockdown and I for one am grateful that here in Spain we have had a virtually total lockdown unlike in the U.K. where the lockdown has been partial and breached by many.

Hi Stormy1,

I think it would be difficult to discuss some of your statements, e.g.

".....presentations by doctors questioning the Pandemic and lock down procedures...."  

"They also reported that doctors are being pressured into put Covid19....."

without you giving links to the material you've been watching.

However, on some of your more specific points: firstly, I wouldn't believe anything I read on Fakebook, without looking for verification from reliable sources.

"A friend of my husband lost his Mum recently due to a heart attack but the death certificate said Covid19 was responsible.  He asked the doctor to amend it and the doctor said he couldn't because they had to put Covid19."

When my mother died, the Death Certificate recorded the cause as Breast Cancer; what my mum actually died of was the many secondary cancers that spread throughout her body: lungs, liver and brain, but because the primary cancer was in the breast, that's what was put on the death certificate.  So in respect of your husband's friend, at a time that must have been dreadfully upsetting for him, did he really understand what he was told?  It may not sink in immediately, but if on reflection I believed a doctor had effectively told me they were altering the cause of death, I would be contacting the Press.  I think you also need to ask yourself, how does it help the UK government to OVER report death figures?  Or are you suggesting a conspiracy by the UK's doctors?  If so, what do you think their motivation would be?

"Now no one is denying that this virus is serious but the doctors in their presentation said that most of the patients who had died had other health problems."

This was initially true, insofar as the developing situation allowed it to be measured.  With a novel (i.e. new) coronavirus, scientists have to assume that everyone is susceptible to becoming infected, but those people whose health is already compromised by other conditions are more likely to die from the disease.

"They even said that obviously they wear masks when treating patients but see no reason to wear them all the time."

Not sure what point you're making here, but neither the WHO, nor the UK government, has said that wearing masks is mandatory.  The advice has always been and continues to be that the general public should only wear masks if they are infected with Covid-19, or caring for someone who has it. Individual countries may take different positions, but that's their prerogative.

"Are the figures regarding death due to the virus giving a true picture?"

No, the UK government has already said that the statistics on their website report only deaths that occur in hospital.  They announced last week that figures reported by the ONS (Office of National Statistics) report much higher numbers of deaths because ONS figures include deaths outside of hospitals, e.g. care homes and private residences.  

EDIT: by the way, I should have specified that the ONS currently declared Covid-19 death rate of 21,284, to which the government refers, represents only England and Wales.  In fact, this figure has already increased:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases

I'm afraid I don't know whether any of my reply will be reassuring for you (I doubt the death rate will), but if you can cite specific information that concerns you, I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one on this forum happy to look at it for you.

Kind regards, 

Kim

Thanks Kim. I was going to say much the same, but now I don´t need to. Only to say, (if I´m correct) the virus, be it flu, sars or covid-19 or even the common cold has the ability to mutate. It therefore does not in itself cause the death, only the infection & how the person either escapes it, or develops secondary complications via the respiratory system, ie organ failure or indeed Community-acquired pneumonia (possibly caused by a deficient immune system or pre- existing health problems). That is how the virus´s work.

Finally, in the case of covid-19 (which is, as we know ongoing) & we have not isolated from where it commenced, it is quite probable, that many may have acquired this virus, well before discovered, & the patient recovered or indeed died, not mentioning covid-19, before testing or a death certificate.

My opinion only.

V

Hi Villas,

I agree, even the ONS website refers to death figures that "involved" Covid-19 (the disease, rather than the virus called SARS-CoV-2), so this would be people who die OF the disease, but also those who die WITH it, i.e. they were infected with the virus, but the disease wasn't the primary cause of death.

I can see an argument for an asymptomatic person who dies of, say, a heart attack, having their death recorded as "involving" the virus, but not dying from the disease - although I don't see how that could be done at the time of writing the Death Certificate, as it would take time to receive the test results.

Kind regards, 

Kim

Hi,

  in my view - if there were only a couple of countries reacting to the coronavirus by restricting mobility it could be a cause for question. The fact that virtually every county in the world has reacted to the virus in some way, most by restricting mobility, then I do believe that the virus is a serious threat and not just another flu epidemic.

  Whether the level of "lockdown" restrictions are too much or too little is a point for discussion. I read the comment from John56 that he is grateful to be in Spain where they have stricter lockdown measures, whereas I on the other hand are grateful that I am in the UK where we have more freedom of movement. Regardless, whatever the government rules are they should be obeyed and official guidance followed.

Rgds,

Aitch.

Hi Ray,

      you are right when you say that the UK figures do not show all deaths from covid19 but wrong to say that they are falsely showing the UK measures are working. The figures are consistent in that they show hospital deaths only, as has always been made clear at the daily briefings. Hospital deaths have been declining as a result of the control measures in place in the UK. That is unless you really want to make it a conspiracy theory and say the government is changing the daily hospital figures? 

Aitch.

The discussion about the ONS figures only representing England and Wales got me thinking about how the rest of the UK, Scotland and Northern Ireland, report their Covid-19 deaths.

In Scotland, the NRS (National Records of Scotland) are responsible.  In Northern Ireland, NISRA (Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency), like the ONS, reports all Covid-19 deaths, but N.I. also has the PHA (Public Health Agency) which, like Public Health England, only records deaths in hospitals.

Both Scotland's and N.I.'s death rates are included in the total UK number of circa 21k deaths.  However, the UK death rate does not include the additional 4,343 deaths currently recorded in non-hospital settings (care homes, private residences, hospices) by the ONS.

This is one of a number of data used by the Financial Times, to calculate that the total UK death rate probably exceeds 41k (41,102 at 21 April):

https://www.ft.com/content/67e6a4ee-3d05-43bc-ba03-e239799fa6ab

On the question of wearing masks, Scotland's first minister has just announced the recommendation for using "face coverings" whilst in certain public spaces, such as supermarkets.  Nicola Sturgeon said it isn't a mandatory requirement and she's not talking about medical-grade masks, but if the face covering isn't single-use, it has to be capable of being washed after every use at 60C.

I believe this constantly evolving situation could explain many of the anomalies which lead Stormy1 to think we're being lied to.

Kind regards, 

Kim

Hi again Stormy1, 

Just coming back to you on your quote, "They said that the Covid19 virus is causing no more deaths than the flu epidemics do every year."

The ONS has just released its latest Covid-19 figures up to 17 April (the UK government says there's always a 2-3 week time lag, because of how the ONS collects the data). It shows that deaths from Covid-19 are higher than any other pandemic virus (including seasonal 'flu and the common cold), since their records began in 1996.

This led me to wonder whether what you've been watching perhaps dates back to the early weeks in the evolution of the Covid-19 pandemic?  I think that probably one thing we can all agree on is that just 1 week can make a significant difference in the data available for analysis.

In any event, I hope you're not worrying unduly.  Even one death is one too many, but keep taking the required precautionary measures and stay safe.  I hope we'll all be around to "debate" the matter for many years to come! 😘

Kind regards,

Kim