Britain looks to break International law - Page 5

Georgetheseventh wrote on Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:51pm:

yea one lot as bad as the other...my man in the sky is better than yours...we Irish hate you Brits so much we blow ourselves up....Ireland will most likely be one Island country at some point in the future...England could have given everyone in the north a million quid to behave and it would have...

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... been cheaper...

Declan2 wrote on Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:33pm:

 Firstly, if the IRA were 'soundly defeated' nobody told them. I dread to think what their 'winning' would have looked like if we suppose them to have been defeated. 

As Wilbur has said, the reaching out began when it was obvious no one could win and involved Thatcher's and Major's governments before Blair.  The British army could not kill the tiny gadfly and the IRA could not force a British withdrawal from Ireland, at least not any time soon.Like it or ...

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...not, again as Wilbur has said, the IRA were a force to contend with. Highly organized, smart and ruthless. We can admire their tenacity whilst deploring  their methodologies.  It is self-evident, at least to me, that, again much as we might dislike it, 'terrorism' works at some level, if only to focus minds on finding a way to end it.  It finally dawned on the combatants that winning wasn't on the cards for either 'side.' , and this coincided with a helpful support from Dublin, and all sides found the willingness  to make peace an option. The peace process in Ireland, as the Northern Irish  poet Seamus Heaney said, was 'when hope and history rhyme.' What a wonderful viewpoint. 

I also want to mention the  use of the highly pejorative and loaded word ' terrorist.' This word was used by Thatcher to describe Nelson Mandela - a man most of us would hail as a saint. iIt has probably been rolled out to label countless people as a way of making them  the bad guys. It often is accompanied by the a contrast with the 'security forces,' so we immediately envision the good guys with the bad eggs, and once our sense of where right and wrong lie, we can act appropriately.

 But the world is not like this. This oversimplification is perfect way to hide malfeasance. The IRA are bad we can treat them however we like, the security forces are good, we must always have their backs. So, in the skewed world of Northern Ireland, the state can cooperate with loyalist paramilitaries to kill those suspected of being in the IRA extra-judicially.  These loaded terms allow for all kinds of injustices such as locking up people you know didn't commit a crime, and leaving them to rot in prison (Birmingham six). The ironic thing about this is that the very injustice you thereby commit feeds the beast you want to kill, and the state, as the 'security forces' acts no differently to the 'terrorists' they seek to destroy.  

On a broader comment on such labels, and again, not defending terrorism in any form, but rather attempting to understand what drives people to such extremes, it's worth noting that, as a Catholic nationalist in northern Ireland, you were very likely not to have a job or a house, or in many cases a vote, just because of who you are, and it's worth noting that the 'security forces' were almost 95% or more made up of Protestant 'loyalists.'  and, the early years of the 'troubles'  you might indeed well  be interned without trial, just because of who you are.  Not difficult to see the recipe for violence in this set-up.

On the actual topic under discussion, the reneging on an international treaty, the undermining of the rule of law undermines all law. It is obvious that no one will view the UK's word in the same light.  the former UK amabassador to the US wrote a great piece in the Guardian on this. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/sep/15/kim-darroch-new-brexit-bill-damaging-to-uks-international-reputation

Wilbur wrote on Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:55pm:

Or could have just withdrawn its armed forces for free. 

Wilbur wrote on Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:41pm:

I assume by 'both sides' you're including the British Army and State in this?  85% of loyalist paramilitaries murders were state sanctioned and all but 3 of 210 arrested were state agents and informers.  See Stevens Inquiries and De Silva Reports. 

The republicans whilst completely outnumbered, certainly caused the higher percentage  of inflicted military casualties  1300 v 400.  Add in the destruction of English Town and city centres, members of Parliament and royalty, they were without doubt a force to be reckoned with and ...

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...one which Mrs Thatcher reached out to to begin Peace talks in the wake of the Downing Street attacks and the 1985 Accord. . Talks continued when John Major took over and the first ceasefire began in 94.

Britain certainly didn't 'win' by any stretch of the imagination. Peace did. 

ADuncanSmith wrote on Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:02pm:

Lets hope it stays that way but it is unjustifiable to give out get out of jail cards to convicted terrorists when legitimate security forces operation from both the military and civilian pice did not.  Strange how no police are being persecuted when I know from personL experience over sever...

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...al tours that there were certain dubious killings by both B Special and the later RUC.  A sad ti.e but it is not finished as people thi k, look into NI news rather than mainstream BBC, lots of punishment details, riots and extortion still going on.  Enjoy

premieroneuk wrote on Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:28pm:

And to add

The Republic this year overtook the UK

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In GDP/Capita so they now wealthier than UK

But of far greater importance is the measure of economic productivity

And for the last 8 yrs The Republic is racing miles ahead of the Sloth like UK

Productivity is NOT people working harder

It increases due to

1.Proper education

2.Employee training

3.Good investment that is aimed at improving productivity

4.Employers,Employees and Government

Developing proper social policies that benefit all

Look at Germany what takes a German to produce in 35 hours

The UK worker has to work 52 hrs to produce the same

And the divergence grows every year

Germany is also beginning to greatly benifit

By the influx of 1 million educated and motivated refugees and at a stroke has solved the severe demographics that were leading to serious problems in the future re.public services,health and pensions

E.G.one bright young Syrian graduated in IT and AI now employs 8000 people and

Rated as the most promising start up enterprise in the whole of EU for years

Georgetheseventh wrote on Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:23pm:

how will we ever catch up with only 6 bright young Syrians to a rubber boat...

Tony810 wrote on Sun Sep 13, 2020 2:59pm:

You are right there were also terrorists on the other side although I personally have not heard of any letters given to them. you appear to defend the idea that innocent lives of women, children and the elderly were a price worth paying to give all those murderers a free pass? 1 innocent death is...

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... 1 to many, terrorists win every time because of weak politicians. 

Georgetheseventh wrote on Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:57pm:

Pejorative only has a negative meaning...and Saint Mandella was better known as the Rivonia Bomber when i lived near Rivonia...and how did IRA child murderers become government ministers...