Brexit - Page 5

It’s easy to see why people do not bother answering posts on the forum.

Sad you feel that your “principled” opinions bear greater reverence than others.

But if that what’s ‘rings your bell” then maybe you best get on with it.

You've literally retained all the rights the rest of us lost after Brexit by dint of your Irish passport, so how about you show some humility & tone down the "it's the democratic will of the people" rubbish?

And you don't use reverence like that. If you don't know how to use a word, don't use it.

Thank you Stan for you’re valuable contribution.

For your info, I don’t hold an Irish passport.

But I will heed your superior and more knowledgeable intelligence and refrain from posting on CBF in the future.

I don't see anyone being "principled & brave", just stating facts. 

It is/was "the democratic will of the people". No matter how flawed we might regard the process the result remains the same. 

To be honest Stan,  reading your posts since you returned from your self-enforced absence it's easy to see why were not missed. 

Enjoy your chickens.

Aitch.

If it´s  ["the democratic will of the people"]

 ie by definition: "a system of government by the whole population or all the members of a state". As you say [No matter how flawed we might regard the process the result remains the same. ]

As regards a defence of principles, even a most basic court of law, protects a defendant´s human rights to the point of appeal.

I acknowledge & accept that in this case, (brexit), there is no appeal.

V

Democracy doesn't mean that our Constitution should not evolve, nor does it mean that we have one vote on any matter and then never re-visit it.

Our first "Representation of the People Act" was enacted in 1832 and there have been arbitrary voting rules throughout our history since.  When voting rights were first granted, it was only to men who owned property of a certain value; it took almost 80 years for all males over 21 years of age to gain that right, and a further 11 years for women to gain suffrage.  In 1969, the voting age was reduced from 21 to 18.  In the 20th Century alone, the Representation of the People Act was amended 6 times.  Reinstating voting rights for people who have had that right arbitrarily removed is no different - they should never have been removed in the first place.  Those who believe the Brexit referendum was "full and wholly democratic" must be ignorant of how our democracy has evolved and that it will continue to do so.

Of course, it's easy to make manifesto pledges and then renege on them - one has to ask why a pledge to lift the arbitrary 15-year rule, that appeared in 3 Conservative manifestoes, was eventually introduced as a Private Member's Bill, rather than a Government-backed Bill?  And it's easy to blame opposition parties, whilst failing to detail their reasons: they objected to new voter photo-ID requirements, which will disenfranchise other groups of voters, and also that the Bill will remove the independence of the Electoral Commission, giving the government yet more powers and removing yet further scrutiny.  For some, it also appears easy to sweep over the fact that it was a member of the Conservatives' far-right ERG who attempted to scupper the Bill's progress:

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/04/09/he-killed-the-bill-britons-living-abroad-for-more-than-15-years-still-dont-have-a-vote/

I wonder how many leave voters would be able to connect the dots between the Brexit vote and this attempt to "kill" the 15 year rule Bill?

I believe that those who question a UK citizen's democratic right to vote in their country of birth and from where their State Pension will be paid, have no interest in British Constitution or democracy.

  Kim, thank you for the overview on the history of voting since 1832, takes me back to GCE History at school, 

 Though you start in 1832 it was not until the 1985 that anyone living overseas could vote in UK elections, set at 20 years in 1989 Conservative government and reduced to 15 years by the Labour government in 2002. Both changes were carried out by the democratically elected governments of the day. No great mention of this being undemocratic until the lost EU referendum. 

   You probably know manifesto pledges regularly get dropped, changed or modified in parliamentary schedules, given all the pre and post referendum activity going on between 2015 and 2020 is it really a surprise that bigger issues got more priority. Well done to the current government for approving the changes perhaps. 

   Yes, I do question the sense in giving people who have decided to make their life in another country the right to vote in UK elections. Justifying this on the basis of getting a state pension is ridiculous, in my view.  Why you think my having this view is undemocratic or anti-constitutional is beyond me to be honest, surely this is what democracy it about. 

  Finally your comment "I wonder how many leave voters would be able to connect the dots between the Brexit vote and this attempt to "kill" the 15 year rule Bill?"  what is your meaning behind that statement? 

Rgds,

Aitch.

What annoys me is the thoughtlessness of all of this.

The affect - not on those who voted 'out' whilst having holiday homes abroad and who are now griping about this - but on those it really affects.

I know personally at least 3 businesses in the UK that cannot afford to now export to the EU. Seriously impacting their companies financially and ability to hire / pay staff.

My own business used to export some equipment from Spain to the UK - given up. items stuck in customs 8 weeks?

Employment - younger people needing to work or wish to have the opportunity within Europe - are now on the bottom of the employment list - after the Spanish, then other Europeans.

As observed in the UK - costs increased due to more paperwork (not less as promised) costs import/export have gone up.

I'm glad I am safe as a resident here - but it's made me quite sad to speak with a number of people this has really affected, who were unaware of the impact of the utter lies they were fed.

Its frustrating to understand these economic and other impacts - and we know that stories of saving the NHS 350 million a week and gaining control of the borders (immigration over doubled since Brexit) - were the defining points and convinced a lot of people as well as pleased the horribly racist portion of the UK society

At least it's reinforced why I came to Spain 20 years ago.

I think this will be a long path back and a generational shift is needed - the wealthy 'im ok' baby boomers, didn't do their homework and all of this patriotic chest-beating, essentially was nonsense. 

The EU is 900 million people and the UK has about 70 million. Who would you cut a deal with first? What makes the UK special - actually now, very little - is a grotty expensive little country with a crumbling infrastructure and a growing wealth/inequality gap. I've got more friends wanting to leave the UK than before Brexit - 3 different strikes today???

 Could be why thousands in the U.K. are buying up places in Bulgaria because even though they are in the EU they do not abide by the 90 stay.I was talking to a Swedish lady who is telling me that Spain,Italy and maybe France want the 180 day shortened to less than 140 to help boost with  their economies.Let’s hope that we can stop this bitterness about the U.K. leaving the EU because not everyone in England voted out.