EU not expected to be on UK Green List when international travel resumes. - Page 4

If; blunder, dither and delay were conditions for a successful Covid vaccination program the EU would have everyone done by now.

Thankfully the Spanish, when they receive EU procured supplies, are proving to be rather good at getting it into peoples arms.

The cost of testing is too high but I do think it is partly deliberate to, as you say, keep people from travelling. It is a double benefit of reducing the risk of bringing something back and keeping money in the UK. But at some point soon they are going to have to start travel again otherwise the airlines and associated services will disappear. 

 There were issues last year but I think the government have largely got it right this year, the lockdowns have worked and the vaccination program has been impressive. 

Aitch.  

Only a complete moron would believe the Spanish numbers, you can easily add 50% to these figures

And presumably you have some reason for assuming this.

Why would the figures generated by the same body underestimate Spain by 50% yet be spot on for the UK. You will only see the figures that each country wants you to see and I'm sure each country will be understated somewhat. So maybe you can also say you could take the high figures in the UK as also understated too.

I must be a moron then because I have no reason to disbelieve them, for what it's worth the UK have done well with the vaccine rollout and I don't blame them for buying up supplies before the test results were in, it was a smart move even though it left other nations short. However the early response was shocking,  the Cheltenham festival, the PPE fiasco, the track and trace and the mixed messages contributed to the massive UK death toll but worse still has been the cronyism, the amoiunt of debt we've run up as a nation is staggering and a good chunk of that money has gone into the pockets of tory donors and other friends of the party. Before the pandemic we'd had 10 years of austerity which starved the NHS of funds yet the national debt doubled during that time

No way UK figures for covid deaths are watertight.

It will come out in the wash up.

We had a family friend, just before retirement about 20 years ago he had his first heart attack, then moved to Xativa in northern costa blanca. More ill health followed including vascular dementia and a bowel issue requiring a bag.

He moved back to the UK about 5 or 6 years ago due to deteriorating health and needed in home nursing provided by his wife. Weight was dropping and he was down to about 6 stone when Covid turned up. He continued to go downhill ultimately to the point where he was near death and admitted to hospital. 

Shortly after being admitted he contracted covid but from what we know died pretty quickly - cause of death Covid. It's laughable if it wasn't for the circumstances.

Glad I'm not the only moron 👍

As expected - they raised hopes, made people have expectations and the day after the elections on Friday they’ll announce the popular destinations will be Amber listed. 

Looks like Fred Pontin and Billy Butlin will make a killing and donate mucho to the Tories. 

Hi Lancelot,

Did you see the Death Certificate?  There's a difference between dying OF Covid, as opposed to dying WITH Covid.  I've posted this information previously, but it still seems to suit some to deny the statistics while offering no evidence other than suggesting we must be "morons".

Taking your suggestion that the UK's Covid-19 death rate is inflated, in part, by death certificates being written incorrectly, who do you think would benefit from this practice?  If true, the falsification would have to be on such a huge scale to explain the UK's death rate, how could it go undiscovered?
This article from the Independent, written by an NHS doctor, summarises my own thoughts on the matter:
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/coronavirus-nhs-doctors-death-certificates-conspiracy-theories-a9513981.html

I also had a look at some of the things the doctor talks about.
For example, I think this chart from John Hopkins' University gives a good illustration of how significant the incidence of incorrect death certificates would have to be in order to skew the UK's death rate, and therefore the number and variety of clinicians who would have to collude in this 'fraud':



Then I thought I'd have a look at the UK government's own guidance.  During the emergency of a global pandemic such as Covid-19, the government adjusted its usual guidance for the completion of death certificates.  The link below includes the two sections that have been amended in response to the pandemic: section 2. Who should sign certify the death? and section 3. Referring deaths to the coroner.  You'll see that the Government guidance defines the difference between patients who die OF Covid-19, as opposed to those who die WITH Covid-19.  You can also see that there is provision for how a doctor should complete a death certificate when test results have yet to be returned and that, because of this, it's occasionally necessary to amend a death certificate once test results have been received.  This does not suggest an attempt to skew numbers, it's normal practice.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/877302/guidance-for-doctors-completing-medical-certificates-of-cause-of-death-covid-19.pdf

Finally, I had a look at similar stories running on social media, which unfortunately plays a big part in these false claims.  Thankfully, there are many bona-fide agencies who spend time investigating them - the doctor in the Independent's article also mentions this particular falsehood: 

Reuters Fact check - False Claim: UK doctors get £75 for signing death certificates, £120 if patient had Covid-1921 May 2020  

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-death-certificate-idUSKBN22X2LD

So I think it's safe to say that, while you are aware of one incident where a death certificate mentions Covid-19, you don't differentiate between OF and WITH; and, as explained above, this is normal practice.  While there may be the odd GP (remember Dr Shipling?), or family members who would want a death certificate falsified for nefarious reasons, this does not suggest wholesale malpractice by the UK's medical profession, or a deliberate attempt to inflate the UK's Covid-19 death rate.  As I said at the beginning, I can't think of a single entity that would benefit from doing so.
Kind regards, Kim

Yours is the tin pot theory. In actual practice I didn’t show any PCR test to enter Spain last month travelling by car or returning over the border the other way.

Antigen tests are accepted in France and Spain, and for coming back into England. Why is it that once you are back in the UK you have to have two PCR tests facilitated and branded NHS but administered by Government approved list of middle men at extortionate prices?